Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You shouldn't. The correct number to use is called "total employee compensation". This includes: 1. salary 2. paid days off 3. health care benefits 4. retirement benefits 5. employer 401k contributions 6. incentive stock plans 7. taxes paid on behalf of the employee (such as the so-called employer's contribution to social security) 8. free food in the company cafeteria 9. any other benefits that cost money The cost…
Having an office for them to work at is also important and costs money.
If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?
951–960 of 1001 posts
Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?
#952Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The dark factory does not make much capital gains, even as it produces 1,000 gizmo per second. But that's good, right? It means that the difference between what workers get paid when they do work and what they pay when they buy things is small. > Sure the 4,995 unemployed might be able to afford the gizmo, but the state does not receive the same taxes. So what happens to those 4,995 unemployed people ? who is payin…
The problem with that is that it operates from a wrong idea of how to set prices for a product. From first principles, you make a widget, figure out how much it costs to make it, including your time, then add some amount of margin on top, and you have a business. That is incorrect. No, you have product, and then you just make up a number based on circumstances. If you're lucky, the price you manage to sell your widge…
In an ordinary competitive market, margins are thin because sellers are fungible, so charging slightly less than the competition results in a disproportionate increase in sales because customers are just choosing the lowest price, and then sellers keep lowering prices until margins are thin because it's more profitable to get a $0.05 margin on a thousand units than a $0.10 margin on a dozen units.
Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?
#953Earlier quoted context omitted.
First, taxes still get paid when the individual dies as estate tax. Second, increased shareholder value typically means more corporate profit which is also taxed. Third, dividends are taxed. So your claim that the shareholder value never makes its way into the tax system is plainly false. This is all aside from the fact that increased shareholder value means a more abundance society regardless of the increase in taxe…
> taxes still get paid when the individual dies as estate tax Almost no one in the US pays the estate tax. It only applies to estates over $14MM and most large estates get reorganized into trusts with estate tax avoidance as a primary motive.
Yes this entire conversation is about the ultra wealthy not paying their "fair share". A $14MM exemption is practically irrelevant here.
> most large estates get reorganized into trusts with estate tax avoidance
This isn't so simple. Transfers to a irrevocable trust count against your lifetime 14mm estate and gift tax exemption and a trust in excess of the 14M exemption is subject to gift tax.
Also, this discussion was about "Buy Borrow Die" strategy. Irrevocable trusts don't make much sense in this context because trusts aren't subject to stepped up basis.
Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?
#954Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?
#955Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ultra-wealthy individuals legally minimise their tax liability by: Receiving a relatively low official salary (Bezos's Amazon salary was $81,840 for many years). Not receiving dividends, so the wealth remains in stock that is not taxed annually. Borrowing money against their stock holdings to fund their lifestyle. Loans are not considered income and are therefore not taxable, and the interest on the loans can sometim…
If you don’t receive income then it obviously shouldn’t be taxed. Otherwise you’d be taxed on owning a car or a house, despite not selling it.
Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?
#956Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Also that's a singular industry 200 years ago, 95% of the workers in my country worked in subsistence farming. Today, only 2% are farmers. The whole spectrum of labor has turned upside down and upside down again, in that time. It has certainly not been a singular industry.
It was a bunch of small changes over the course of 200 years but yes that's perfectly comparible to the effects needed to justify the valuation put into all the AI companies right now... but I was talking about the issues with comparing it to singular inventions like the cotton gin or jacquard loom that DO largely only affect one industry. I think it's weird there's so much pushback on the idea that if the hype prove…
Ok, appreciate the clarification. But in that time frame there have been a number of really tectonic inventions that changed pretty much everything: steam power, ICE power, electrification, refrigeration, computing and the internet, just to name a few off the top of my head.
> There's plenty of space to think it just won't happen (where I'm personally at, at least on the current LLM driven versions)
Same. I am both optimistic about human ability to find new jobs, and skeptical that "AI" is going to make that necessary in the new future.
Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?
#957Earlier quoted context omitted.
That defers the gains, but does not eliminate them. When the loan comes due, they have to sell assets to pay it back.
Did you skip over the last paragraph? If you can defer the repayment of the loan until after death, capital gains are eliminated.
Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?
#958Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if I build and manage a dark factory ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lights_out_(manufacturing) ) and it produces gizmos. Since all my competitors are also running dark factories, we compete essentially on source materials + energy (assuming we have similar design/quality). Margin would be eventually razor thin. The dark factory does not make much capital gains, even as it produces 1,000 gizmo per second. The ca…
> The dark factory does not make much capital gains, even as it produces 1,000 gizmo per second. But that's good, right? It means that the difference between what workers get paid when they do work and what they pay when they buy things is small. > Sure the 4,995 unemployed might be able to afford the gizmo, but the state does not receive the same taxes. So what happens to those 4,995 unemployed people ? who is payin…
Well, you still have to pay for the energy (to extract raw material and transform it into final product, and move final product into your hands). So unless we assume energy cost is 0 and raw materials are not scarce, the final product has a cost, and a price, now my understanding is that if everyone uses dark factories, the margin would go down, and so the gain per "company" would drop too, hence the limited tax base.
My guess is from the 2 ends of the spectrum that you listed, we are moving from "there is still work you need people to do, and then they do that, and still have jobs." to "we automate everything". And as we move to the "we automate everything" end of the spectrum, the number of jobs lost would increase, the taxes collected (VAT, income, capital gain, etc.) would decrease (assuming the current tax system) and yet people (employed or not) would still education, health care, social security (retirement).
If we do not change how we tax things, I do not see how we would sustain a society where the majority is materially (gizmos) rich, but financially poor (no job, no retirement, no social security, no education).
While dark factories keep producing high volume of gizmos for next to nothing...
I am curious how we can manage that transition, which I believe could happen way faster than politicians can move.
Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?
#959Earlier quoted context omitted.
My problem is when you automate, the benefits are not passed on to the entire chain of people involved even though we start the discussion with that. So what do we do?
In a competitive market, efficiency gains are generally going to end up as lower prices to the customer, which is the main way that ordinary people benefit from them. That doesn't happen when the market is consolidated and the oligopoly keeps the gains themselves. So, ensure competitive markets by thwarting regulatory capture and enforcing antitrust laws.
We would need to find a way to give money to people so they can keep participating in the economy even though everything is cheap. If not UBI, we would need to find ways for the majority to do something that is not automated, and give them some coins in exchange.
For millennia the currency has been energy (human labor, then machines) and intelligence (human intelligence, then artificial intelligence). If energy and intelligence price goes down, and the amount of energy and intelligence increases, then what is left for humans to claim some reward/coins ?
Re: If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?
#960Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if I build and manage a dark factory ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lights_out_(manufacturing) ) and it produces gizmos. Since all my competitors are also running dark factories, we compete essentially on source materials + energy (assuming we have similar design/quality). Margin would be eventually razor thin. The dark factory does not make much capital gains, even as it produces 1,000 gizmo per second. The ca…
> Sure the 4,995 unemployed might be able to afford the gizmo, but the state does not receive the same taxes. So what happens to those 4,995 unemployed people ? who is paying for their health benefits and social security (retirement) ? So are we're simultaneously facing a big unemployment crisis, and a big shortage of health care providers and retirement care takers?
If AI is so good that it can replace health and retirement care, then the price should fall to.
But basically, we would end up with AI and dark factories building gizmos to sustain and entertain humans and fixing them until they die.
I guess taxes at this point are irrelevant, AI could build new factories of factories, money would be useless.