951–960 of 968 posts
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The more right you are, the more important it is not to discredit your arguments with incivility.
Is "more right" even possible? I don't want to be "more right"! Static charge emerges from the process of disagreement on these and other crisis subjects. Calm diplomacy is main goal but occasionally something unexpectedly ferocious latches to your ankle, and calmly ushering the threat from your ankle becomes the lesser option of a more animated response.
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Note that what I'm describing is essentially the status quo before 7 October, including the periodic "mowings of the lawn" by Israel to keep Gaza uprisings in check. Alternatively of course, Israel could choose to make peace. And that's an option that is available only to Israel, who is the occupying power, and the overwhelmingly more militarily powerful party, not to the Palestinians who can only keep growing resist…
Serious question: Do you think that Isreal would cease to be attacked by Palestinians tomorrow if they stopped military operations, left Palestine, lifted all blockades, and only operated a no-cross policy for the shared border? My hypothesis is that without a blockade, external munitions would be shipped in and used to try and obliterate Isreal. I see no evidence of a stop-and-immediate-peace outcome.
Within Hamas itself there are moderates, that were sidelined in 2007, after the attempted coup by a US-armed Fatah faction that led to Hamas taking control of Gaza. These moderates have been severely weakened in the wars that followed, but Hamas has made a few entreaties for peace with Israel (all rebuffed) so they are still there and still have some influence. If Israel shows that it is serious about peace, these moderates will be empowered and will find support in the population, I believe.
I believe peace is possible. I'm Greek. After the Catastrophe of 1922 (you'll find information about it on Wikipedia), we have had 102 years of peace with the Turkish, our blood enemies for many centuries. A peace troubled, at times, but a peace nonetheless, that has endured. Like the Jewish, we too have lost the land where our ancestors lived for thousands of years, lost our greatest city, lost our greatest temple that was turned into a mosque by the Turkish. If we and the Turkish can make it work, the Israelis and the Palestinians can make it work. Not immediately, like you suggest. But someone has to make the first step. The Palestinians can't, because they're the weakest side and they cannot negotiate from a position of power. The Israelis must make the first move. And endure through any turbulence that follows.
>> My hypothesis is that without a blockade, external munitions would be shipped in and used to try and obliterate Isreal.
That doesn't have to happen but I think 7 October was the worst Hamas will ever be able to do. It's not like they'll suddenly grow a modern army with F-16s and armor. The IDF will always be able to deal with whatever Hamas manage to throw at them, there is no question about that in my mind.
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If you think it is not about punishment or retribution you have not listened to what Israel's own leaders have said. ""I am personally proud of the ruins in Gaza. [...] every baby, even 80 years from now, will tell their grandchildren what the Jews did." https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1760548502348701804 What the Israelis are doing now is no different from what the Romans did to quell various rebellions, wh…
If you tell me what country you're from I'll try the same trick on you, take some selective voices from your "leadership" and present them as if they're policy or the official position of your country.
Punishment or retribution is not Israel's policy here and is not what's being executed on the ground. Are there some crazy voices in Israeli politics. Yes. That proves nothing. Also many of those voices were heard in the immediate aftermath of Oct 7th that was so brutal, barbaric, and shocking, that "blood was boiling" and emotions ran high.
What you're saying here is basically blood libel. To take your analogies, it's not different than the stories about Jews drinking the blood of Christian children. It's an antisemitic lie in the form you present it. That people have the audacity to draw comparisons between what the Nazis did to the Jews and what's going on in Gaza is mind boggling.
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That's true of many wars I think? Doesn't your argument boil down to "wars are not moral"? When the Iraqis and the US were besieging and pounding Mosul, was there a lot of discussion about the suffering of the innocents? Did the US or anyone else air drop supplies to them or send aid trucks into Mosul? Maybe- but I don't recall. Let's not forget that ISIS was thousands of miles from the US and the US was under no dir…
Hamas was elected in 2006. Hamas was initially funded by Israel - yes they are an Israeli creation to weaken the Palestinian Authority. Let that sink in for a minute. Over 50% of Gaza's population was born after this election. Of the remaining, there was barely 40% turnout and Hamas barely won. But yet, you cling to the narrative fed to you that they are all guilty (which means you ascribe to collective punishment -…
Hamas is not an Israeli creation. I don't know where you're getting that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas#The_founding_...
Hamas was not "initially funded by Israel". References?
Support for violence and Hamas amongst Palestinians is not "my narrative". It's truth supported by numerous surveys. If you want to get some color go look for the YouTube channel that interviews Palestinians on the street on topical questions over the last decade or so.
Hamas enjoys broad support and would get re-elected, that's why we didn't see any elections after 2006, because the PA would have lost to Hamas. Also the attack of Hamas on Oct 7th has broad support and previous to Oct 7th support for the use of violence against Israel was similarly broad.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/palestinian-pol...
"The polls shows 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching its October 7 onslaught, in which some 1,200 people in Israel, mostly civilians, were murdered and over 240 were taken hostage. A large majority believes Hamas’s claims that it acted to “defend” the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem and win the release of Palestinian security prisoners. Only 10% say they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the terrorists committing atrocities."
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8...
"The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party." (2021)
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/21/1217758546/hamas-support-pale...
I can give you 100's of more surveys over the last decade. It might be true that Hamas' support today in Gaza is waning given the circumstances but probably rising in the west bank. Palestinians were celebrating Oct 7th.
Hamas is active in the West Bank. You're also wrong about that. In fact the previous war in Gaza was a result of Hamas actions from the West Bank: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gush_Etzion_kidnapping_an...
Anyways we are talking about Gaza, how did this get to the West Bank? Your statements about the west bank are also wrong. Israel demolishes houses of terrorists that murder Israeli civilians. That's pretty much the only "routinely destroys homes" I can think of. Israel doesn't arrest children and put them in inhuman(e?) detention camps, where do you get that stuff?
Israel isn't perfect by any means, but the bad guys in this story are the Palestinians. There's no excuse for things like suicide bombers blowing up busses, malls, and restaurants. There's no excuse of Oct 7th. They chose indiscriminate violence as their way of settling the conflict and refused any peaceful attempts to settle it. You're the one that needs to wake up and at the very least learn the facts of this conflict before you make up your mind. EDIT: Also no excuse to firing 10's of thousands of rockets and mortars into Israeli population centers. All these things are war crimes and crimes against humanity. Israel's actions as a whole are not.
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If you think it is not about punishment or retribution you have not listened to what Israel's own leaders have said. ""I am personally proud of the ruins in Gaza. [...] every baby, even 80 years from now, will tell their grandchildren what the Jews did." https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1760548502348701804 What the Israelis are doing now is no different from what the Romans did to quell various rebellions, wh…
I speak Hebrew and I listen to a broad range of voices coming out of Israel. Do you? If you tell me what country you're from I'll try the same trick on you, take some selective voices from your "leadership" and present them as if they're policy or the official position of your country. Punishment or retribution is not Israel's policy here and is not what's being executed on the ground. Are there some crazy voices in…
"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed ... we are fighting against human animals" - Israel's defense minister. "You must remember what Amalek has done to you" Israel's fucking prime minister. "It is an entire nation out there that is responsible" Israel's president.
You have 100 Israeli doctors calling for Israel to bomb a hospital: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231106-100-israel-doctor...
It is very clear that what is going on is fueled by vengeance. Israel knows it can't destroy Hamas, but it can make the civilians suffer which it thinks will act as a deterrent. "Was it worth it?" they ask and hope that future Palestinians will answer "No".
You can accuse me of blood libel all you want, but this is exactly what the Nazis did to resistance groups in the territories they occupied. And the German people cheered them on, just like the Israelis do now.
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Serious question: Do you think that Isreal would cease to be attacked by Palestinians tomorrow if they stopped military operations, left Palestine, lifted all blockades, and only operated a no-cross policy for the shared border? My hypothesis is that without a blockade, external munitions would be shipped in and used to try and obliterate Isreal. I see no evidence of a stop-and-immediate-peace outcome.
You are probably right. I think it will certainly take a very long time for the feelings of hatred and vengeance to subside, on both sides, after all the horror, death and destruction. But I think that the majority of the Palestinians, even many who have lost people in all the wars in Gaza in the last 17 years, would prefer peace to war. They have gained nothing from war and have lost way too much. Why wouldn't they…
We will see how this plays out, but I hope Palestine can use this as an opportunity to rebuild and find some industry, such as tourism, to boost them economically and allow them to thrive.
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I speak Hebrew and I listen to a broad range of voices coming out of Israel. Do you? If you tell me what country you're from I'll try the same trick on you, take some selective voices from your "leadership" and present them as if they're policy or the official position of your country. Punishment or retribution is not Israel's policy here and is not what's being executed on the ground. Are there some crazy voices in…
How can you claim that what a minister says is not indicative of government policy? How come you are in a better position to interpret government policy than the ministers themselves? "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed ... we are fighting against human animals" - Israel's defense minister. "You must remember what Amalek has done to…
You're taking the Israeli defense minister quote, a snippet of it, made at the height of shock, as factual policy, when you know this is not true on the ground, e.g. Israel is letting food and fuel in and has not laid a complete siege on Gaza since Oct 7th. It also supplies Gaza with water. I'll concede that in the immediate shock after the barbaric Oct 7th attack there were some very strong statements made but actual policy has been within the laws of war. Gallant was also mostly referring to what Israel supplies Gaza but Israel has no direct control over the Gaza-Egypt border. His referral of "fighting human animals" was referring to Hamas's Oct 7th rape, mutilation, murder, torture, etc. Maybe not the best choice of words.
I am going to maintain that this is a blood libel.
I do think I'm in a better position to interpret government policy because I actually listen to the broader voices and understand how the system works. You're obviously not exposed to the broad public discourse in Israel but rather to highly filtered/cherry-picked views.
"Israel is doing all it can to get civilians out of harm's way as it battles Hamas in Gaza, including dropping leaflets warning them to flee, but its attempts to minimize casualties were "not successful", Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Thursday.": https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-not-success...
"A senior aide to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel’s military is undertaking a “maximum effort” to minimize civilian casualties amid its military campaign in Gaza.": https://thehill.com/policy/international/4269020-netanyahu-a...
"“We don’t seek to govern Gaza, we don’t seek to occupy it. But we seek to give it and us a better future … and that requires defeating Hamas,” he said. “I’ve set goals, I didn’t set a timetable because it can take more time.”: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/10/netanyahu-says-not...
"The PMO said that when Netanyahu used the biblical quotation “Remember what Amalek did to you,” he was using it as a way of describing the savage Hamas attack of October 7, and certainly not as a call for wanton killings.
The PMO pointed out that the same phrase appears in a permanent exhibit at the Yad Vashem Holocaust museum, as well at a memorial in The Hague itself for Dutch Jews murdered in the Holocaust.
“Obviously neither reference is an incitement to genocide of the German people,” the PMO said." https://www.timesofisrael.com/pms-office-says-its-prepostero...
"President ‘disgusted’ by judges using ‘partial, fragmented quotes’ in genocide ruling, ignoring accompanying remarks that Israel follows international law, doesn’t target civilians" https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-blood-libel-herzog-says-icj-...
The IDF spokesperson has said hundreds of times in his daily briefings that the war is not against Palestinians, it's against Hamas: "“I’ve seen, personally, many types of targets that we have. The resolution of the intelligence, as in whose house it is, which Hamas commander uses the facility or what the offices in a certain building are used by Hamas for,” Conricus said. “I can tell you that the intelligence is solid and it is focused and that we are striking targets that are directly related to Hamas and not targets that don’t have anything to do with them.” https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4250823-tapper-presses-id...
""I want to be clear from the beginning, there is not a single drop of cynicism about Palestinian civilian casualties. We do not want and we are not trying to achieve any casualties. Our fight is against the evil terrorist organization Hamas. It is them that we are targeting, not the civilian population. But unfortunately, because Hamas hides behind them, unfortunately, civilians get caught in the middle," he said." https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/hamas-prefers-t...
EDIT: and again, the comparison of Israel to the Nazis is ignorant and disgusting.
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How can you claim that what a minister says is not indicative of government policy? How come you are in a better position to interpret government policy than the ministers themselves? "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed ... we are fighting against human animals" - Israel's defense minister. "You must remember what Amalek has done to…
I can claim it because it is true. A minister (that is part of a coalition of many parties in Israel) is not indicative of government policy. There are some pretty whacky ministers in the Israeli government right now with some pretty weird opinions. This is not Israeli policy. Policy is determined by Cabinet and broader government votes, not by what people are saying (responding emotionally or trying to appease some…
While Golan is a minister without a portfolio, she wouldn't be in her position if she was not a popular politician or if her views were not aligned with those of the rest of the government. And she certainly has power to affect government policy. Although these ministers may be "whacky" to you the very fact that they are ministers prove that they aren't wacky to most Jewish Israelis. After all, they were elected.
Children are starving to death in Gaza and your country is on trial for genocide. While you try to excuse these crimes and justify calls for genocide (Amalek). Whine about anti-Semitism all you want, in my eyes you are nothing but an Israeli neo-Nazi. You have learned nothing from history and had you been German you would have justified the Nazi crimes too.
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> What's the point of hiding soldiers among civilian targets if Israel is just going to bomb the civilian targets Getting international opinion to turn against Israel. Thats the way Hamas can survive this, getting enough pressure on Israel to make them stop.
One, Hamas isn't doing this. No proof beyond the inevitable effects of fighting in one of the most densly populated areas on this planet. Two, Israel is doing an incredible good job at putting the pressure on themselves right now.
Sinwar himself said it :
Then a courier arrived with a message from Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, saying, in effect: Don’t worry, we have the Israelis right where we want them.
Hamas’s fighters, the Al-Qassam Brigades, were doing fine, the upbeat message said. The militants were ready for Israel’s expected assault on Rafah, a city on Gaza’s southern edge. High civilian casualties would add to the worldwide pressure on Israel to stop the war, Sinwar’s message said, according to people informed about the meeting.
Source https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-thinks-it-could-...
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I can claim it because it is true. A minister (that is part of a coalition of many parties in Israel) is not indicative of government policy. There are some pretty whacky ministers in the Israeli government right now with some pretty weird opinions. This is not Israeli policy. Policy is determined by Cabinet and broader government votes, not by what people are saying (responding emotionally or trying to appease some…
Your argumentation is a form of damage control. Just like modern neo-Nazis either downplay, minimize, or try to justify atrocities committed by the Nazi regime you try to downplay, minimize or justify atrocities committed by the Israeli regime. The neo-Nazis say that the number of victims of the Holocaust is grossly overstated. You will say that there is no grounds for accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza. The neo-Naz…
Your argument is that Israelis are Nazis and therefore Israelis are Nazis. You refuse to entertain the possibility that the literal Nazis here are the Hamas and their supporters despite all the evidence and their rhetoric saying so.
Your comparison of Israel to Nazis is disgusting, ignorant and antisemitic.
You're taking natural emotional responses when your people are brutally raped, mutilated, kidnapped, slaughtered in their homes and comparing it to the deliberate calculated murder of 6 million Jews that did nothing to the Germans over years.
EDIT: You are the one who is "downplay, minimize, or try to justify atrocities committed by the Nazi regime". What does that make you by your own definition? A lot of people have died, I'm not happy about it. There's been a lot of destruction. I blame Hamas for starting the war. There are starving children, yes. These are nothing compared to the Nazis. Nothing. Israel is within its rights to wage this war, it has good reasons, it is persecuting it within the norms for similar wars. It is not committing genocide and "your country is on trial for genocide" is bullshit and you know it.