FedNow Is Live • Hacker News Board

Re: FedNow Is Live

#951

Post by djfobbz » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

kemotep wrote: post #38

djfobbz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, unlike cash, the issuing entity can program CBDC to expire on a specific date unless utilized. Another horror use case is that they could track and limit how many hamburgers or pizzas you eat daily, weekly, monthly or yearly!

Why would the government program money to expire? Would the money not become effectively worthless the closer to the expiration date? Why would a business accept transactions from people with money that’s about to expire would that then mean they would be giving away goods and services for free potentially?

That's a question you should ask China. If it's possible, you can bet it's going to happen sooner or later. https://coinpri.com/news/cryptocurrency/the-chinese-cbdc-wil...

Re: FedNow Is Live

#952

Post by amflare » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 4:24 PM UTC

itake wrote: post #525

amflare wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the difference between the government needing a search warrant and having to come to your house, and them needing a search warrant but a law enforcement officer already living in your house. Sure, they still "need a warrant", but that doesn't make the situation acceptable.

Do you think private unregulated businesses (CashApp, Venmo, etc.) that this is trying to replace are any better? These companies just sell your transaction data to the highest bidder, no warrant needed.

But these companies don't have a legal monopoly on force. It's in my best interest, if I have to deal with both these problems, to keep them separated.

Re: FedNow Is Live

#953

Post by scarface_74 » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 4:28 PM UTC

epcoa wrote: post #943

ezfe wrote: post #915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can easily create an account just for T-Mobile and auto-deposit into it monthly.

But then they wouldn’t have anything to complain about.

I still don’t get the phone warranty that comes by just charging the bill to my Amex card (potentially saves about $500 a year) or the close to 5000 Amex points per year (worth about $75)

Re: FedNow Is Live

#954

Post by skybrian » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 5:00 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #32

skybrian wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India’s system is more usable, though, apparently. This seems like an improvement but it doesn’t do the same thing? > Because UPI is designed to be intermediated by computers rather than by humans, transactional information gets captured by the payments company while the transaction is in progress, and that can tell the clerk (or cron job) that the payment succeeded without them needing access to the bank account. >…

Reward schemes are funded by interchange fees funded by higher product prices. They are a tax on the entire economy. Merchants can push the CC fees to customers who opt to pay with CCs vs cheap or free instant payment systems. T-Mobile has dropped autopay discounts if you use a credit card vs deposit/bank accounts for payment, for example. Walmart wrote public comments on this topic supporting the FedNow implementati…

You could think of credit card rewards as a form of price discrimination similar to coupons. Whether you get the higher or lower price depends on what you do. Credit cards with high rewards are discount cards.

There are many ways to pay and they have different discount rates. Some places have a cash discount, for example.

As a "tax," this falls on people who don't shop around for whatever reason. Some of them are wealthy and can't be bothered to play this game. Others might not find playing the game feasible for other reasons.

Re: FedNow Is Live

#955

Post by yencabulator » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 5:17 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #568

wslh wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is innovative and/or well engineered there? Could any bank or financial institution connect seamlessly with the system? How does it handle security keys, transparency, and transaction log duration?

Do you call those things "innovative"?

American Innovation™.

U.S. banking is so far behind the rest of the world. This development is very much welcome.

Re: FedNow Is Live

#956

Post by frankfrankfrank » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 5:19 PM UTC

[dead]

Re: FedNow Is Live

#957

Post by pc86 » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

Frummy wrote: post #481

Ao7bei3s wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does a development environment look like, both architecturally and simply visually? Like: Do developers spin up entire fake economies with two banks and the fed on their latop, or is it all incremental changes to individual microservices in a big permanent test setup? Do other banks / service providers / the fed run test instances of their systems with fake money for other companies to do interop with, like a "g…

In front of your eyes: TSO-ISPF for everything. IDz for the 5 seconds per month that code is actually written Test env: Separate permanent envs. From playground where nothing matters, env with some fake data in similar databases and variants of all systems, to mirror of prod with anonymised data, then prod There are dummy online banking web interfaces What sets it apart is that the operating system is painful to use…

I'd rather not have "off-road improvisational innovation" with the nation's banking infrastructure, thanks. If that's what you want to do go write another JS framework or static site generator, don't work at a bank.

Re: FedNow Is Live

#958

Post by ollien » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

pjg wrote: post #792

mighmi wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US already has Zelle which does this. However the roll out was botched, many banks don't seem to use it and most people (including me until a few months ago) thought it was a paypal competitor - but it's actually a government based system system which renders free transfers between bank accounts (your own or others) with a cap of 3 or 5k/month. The interface is very weird. Many people can't figure out how to use…

Zelle has many limitations: 1) The recipient needs to download the app and sign up. How does the Payor know whether the recipient has Zelle app or not 2) Even with the app, there are only about 50-100 banks that allow Zelle transfers. If someone's bank does not offer Zelle they are directed to enter their Debit Card number using "Push to Card" to receive the funds. While the funds land up in the bank account instantl…

BTW,

> 1) The recipient needs to download the app and sign up. How does the Payor know whether the recipient has Zelle app or not

This is not strictly true. You can still send money to bank accounts directly, but it's not instant.

Re: FedNow Is Live

#959

Post by jowea » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 5:46 PM UTC

delfinom wrote: post #933

astrange wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the reason SVB collapsed is they couldn't get paid by government insurance fast enough IIRC.

SVB largely did not qualify for any government protections beyond the FDIC limits. The bailout we gave them was shameful.

I'm not sure if that's what the previous poster was referring to, but before SVB officially collapsed it tried to get an emergency loan but failed because the system for such emergency loans is slower than the systems its clients could use to transfer money out.

> And yet! Man! What the heck! A lot has been written about how SVB was a bank run for a speedier, modern age. Instead of hearing a rumor at the coffee shop and running down to the bank branch to wait on line to withdraw your money, now you can hear a rumor on Twitter or the group chat and use an app to withdraw money instantly. A tech-friendly bank with a highly digitally connected set of depositors can lose 25% of its deposits in hours, which did not seem conceivable in previous eras of bank runs. But the other part of the problem is that, while depositors can panic faster and banks can give them their money faster, the lender-of-last-resort system on which all of this relies is still stuck in a slower, more leisurely era. “When the user interface improves faster than the core system, it means customers can act faster than the bank can react,” wrote Byrne Hobart. You can panic in an instant and withdraw your money with an app, but the bank can’t get more money without a series of phone calls and test trades that can only happen during regular business hours. And so sometimes a bank that theoretically has a lot of liquidity can just run out of cash.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-03-22/silico...

Re: FedNow Is Live

#960

Post by aunterste » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 5:55 PM UTC

I hope it's a success - but I am doubtful in the US payment landscape, as absurd incentives persisted so long: - C2B payments (everything from cable to insurance) is dominated by credit card payments, as consumers chase rebates/miles/cash back [paid for by the people who don't pay their card in full every months] - C2C payments, because it was virtually impossible for an average person to pay another bank account to bank account, a whole shadow banking system like Venmo, PayPal, Zelle, CashApp was created. - B2B could always pay via ACH, doing it in real time for vendor payments has no advantage - B2C payments, maybe - when you insurance company settle a claim same day (just kidding...).

So I hope that the US gets to a place where it is secure and convenient to pay others bank accounts with the balance in your bank account - but I doubt it.