Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

xmodtwo.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

951–960 of 1001 posts

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#951

Post by alldayeveryday »

yamazakiwi wrote: post #550
alldayeveryday wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I just have the view that if I am turning on the radio, the TV, watching a movie, a tv show, celebrity voices, the state department, etc - and I am seeing the counterculture, then I am actually just seeing the culture.

Seeing a government body virtue-signal by putting up a flag is not the same as the actual lives that queer people live, which varies WILDLY from the norm thus making it counter cultural. In fact, many queer people force themselves out of the community by living within the norm to feel more acceptance from the majority (counter-counter culture). Your perception is also very obviously specific to where you live on this…

A given queer person's level of identification with the broader community is of no relevance to the question of whether the broader culture of the community is countercultural. When the culture itself is used as a political tool by a state actor, I no longer classify the culture as countercultural. Rather, I see it as a weaponized mechanism of cultural subversion.

Sure, the hippie movement was branded countercultural. But to what purpose? Note that during the period, the US government was engaged in a large scale remaking of America both domestically and internationally. Domestically, we saw the remaking of immigration policies to no longer bias towards those of European descent, and instead towards what favored macro capitalism (the import of cheaper and low skilled labor). Internationally the US was scaling up engagement in hot and cold wars and no longer considering itself bound to the constitutional provisions for war. Low and behold, during this period, a "counterculture" arises which glorifies drug use, the dissolution of the nuclear family and pushes forward the vapid strain of hyper individualism that we see today. Suddenly the anti-war movement is associated with drug use and degeneracy, whilst the nation's racial consciousness is broken in time to welcome a new wave of immigrants to help improve the margins of big business.

Note that the current "woke" counterculture follows the same pattern. Increased individualism, sublimated racial awareness, dissolution of family, and rampant degeneracy. Meanwhile the state continues its hegemonic march of constant international agitation.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#952

Post by ttyprintk »

pram wrote: post #268
nemo44x wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should read “Gravity's Rainbow” - or at least an analysis of it. A major point/theme is that no matter what you do, if it’s useful/profitable/empowering/etc then it will be co-opted by “the man” or whatever. There’s a never ending graveyard of counter culture artifacts that existed to spit on the mainstream that were nearly merged in, packaged, and sold back to the hordes of consumers that think they’re outsid…

This process has been called "recuperation" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_(politics)

Or maybe a little earlier,

“ the producer of mass culture has no use for experience, his own or another’s, which cannot be immediately shared. What is endured by one human being alone seems to him unreal, or even an effect of madness.”

Harold Rosenberg, 1948

https://www.commentary.org/articles/harold-rosenberg-2/the-h...

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#953

Post by asdajksah2123 »

Perceval wrote: post #677
koprulusector wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

> homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels This is the counter-culture. The dominant culture opposes all of these things and makes obligatory the celebration of the opposite values. 4chan being one of the few lightly-restricted free speech zones allows for culture generation that would be censored anywhere else. Counter-culture is supposed to be edgy, just like jazz and rock were edgy, grea…

Homophobia is enshrined in law in the majority of countries in the world. You will literally be stoned to death for having sex with the same gender in several countries.

Racism is core to nearly every country in the world. It may seem bad in the US, but it's worse elsewhere. And while people won't admit they're racist in the US, racism itself is pervasive.

Sexism might be the most prominent and long lasting parts of the culture across the world for millenia. Just look up the rape stats, and then keep in mind that most rapes are not reported.

Homophobia, racism, and sexism are deeply ingrained in nearly every culture on the planet today.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#954

Post by banannaise »

coding123 wrote: post #840
banannaise wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LGBTQ was edgy Aside from monogamous gay people, queerness is very much still edgy and not particularly accepted by the dominant/mainstream culture. (This is not a positive thing, but it is reality.)

We want non-monogamous in society? Isn't that just chaos at best?

What? I'm not talking about bigamy, I'm talking about relationship structures that aren't just two married people creating a nuclear family.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#955

Post by ttyprintk »

eastof wrote: post #514
TbobbyZ wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It’s a privilege to be able to make a living without the internet.

I know what you are getting at, but just want to point out there are still plenty of offline jobs out there which are very much not privileged. For example, the independent recycler rummaging through your bin at night is likely all offline but they're not "privileged" by any means. From their perspective, those making money online are very privleged.

Different topic. It is a privilege to make a living without using asynchronous communication.

The class you describe is just as attuned to texting and collaborating with others using smartphones.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#956

Post by ttyprintk »

_gabe_ wrote: post #431
zamfi wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re observing isn’t a lack of counter-culture, it’s a lack of monolithic culture , though. In different parts of the country, or even different parts of the same city, the dominant culture is different. Living a “glorified lifestyle,” as you put it, in NY of SF? Sure, no one bats an eye. In the rural south? Different story. On the other hand — white man with “radically traditional values“, whatever that means…

I live in the rural south and went to a private Christian university. They painted the statue of the school mascot a rainbow on pride month. My biblical ethics classes taught the opposite of what the Bible teaches. The students couldn't care less about the traditional aspects of Christianity. My friends at other Christian private universities had similar experiences. You don't have to be in NY, SF, or wherever to exp…

I would argue that drawing conclusions directly from the Gospel and facts of Jesus’ life has been a Christian counterculture since at least the 70s. Jesus Christ Superstar could not find a venue; it was rejected by the culture of musical theater.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#957

Post by alldayeveryday »

flangola7 wrote: post #416
alldayeveryday wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... mean that the majority white, straight, Christian(ish) majority in America doesn't still wield most of the power. yeah, except for finance, media, academia and politics. I do agree that straight white christian(ish) males do wield the most power in the other intuitions that matter (thought I'm drawing a blank on which those might be).

>except for finance, media, academia and politics. But those are dominated by straight white men. A simple demographic survey of Congress and org executives will show that. What are you talking about?

I think we have a diff definition of white.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#958

Post by flangola7 »

alldayeveryday wrote: post #957
flangola7 wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>except for finance, media, academia and politics. But those are dominated by straight white men. A simple demographic survey of Congress and org executives will show that. What are you talking about?

I think we have a diff definition of white.

What other definition would there be?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#959

Post by tonymet »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #879
tonymet wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People need to give more attention to the collapse in ad-hoc labor. We've made life far too regimented and regulated for many people. I don't think we give enough attention to this gap in the economy.

What's the difference between ad hoc labour and the gig economy ?

By ad hoc I mean transients, hobos , hippies— people “off grid”— who want to pick up a cash job for a few weeks or a couple months e.g farm work, dishwashing, construction site, nursing, hospitality etc.

You show up to the owner, negotiate on the spot and start working.

the gig economy requires a credit card, bank account, background check , smartphone, app install etc – and all the tracking and hassle that goes with it.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#960

Post by tonymet »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #851
tonymet wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People need to give more attention to the collapse in ad-hoc labor. We've made life far too regimented and regulated for many people. I don't think we give enough attention to this gap in the economy.

This has been on the Forefront of my mind for a long time. Without getting too political it seems that many places, California especially, are Waging War against ad hoc labor and small businesses. Individuals are difficult to regulate in comparison to large businesses and individual autonomy comes with the trade-off of less security and protections.

I believe a big chunk of the homelessness today were people who were able to sustain themselves with ad-hoc labor and housing arrangements . Though they’re not comfortable holding down a 9-5 (blue or white collar) , they could pick up an ad-hoc job as needed until their next transition.

We’ve replaced a once diverse and diffused economy with a “all or nothing” labor workplace. Either you are “in the system” working full time or multiple part-time gigs, on assistance, or on the streets. There’s no real room for transients, hippies, hobos and the like to sustain themselves as they had.

Post reply on HN