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What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

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Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#951

Post by rjbwork »

kazinator wrote: post #939
rjbwork wrote: post #825

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I do think GP is correct at many places, my team literally hired a black woman from Georgia and turned down a white dude from Boston, lol. I am not a fan of the overbearing top down policies like Microsoft is talking about, but I have become friendly with aforementioned hire, and some of the stories of discrimination and just people being really rude to her in the professional world are mind blowing to me. I ca…

A single datapoint doesn't confirm or refute the presence of bias; your anecode doesn't contrast anything I've written in my comment about the definition of bias. If the organization consistently chose a black woman over an equally qualified white man, that would likely indicate bias. What is "literally hired"; does your organization figuratively hire most of the time, except for the surprising odd time when it is, w…

I feel you may have misunderstood my comment. I wasn't really trying to argue anything, merely stating my belief in light of information conveyed to me by someone. Let me explain.

I don't think I intended to counter anything with what I was saying. I was merely amused by the intersection of the article i was reading with the situation I had - being involved in the hiring of, specifically, an african american woman in Georgia to an engineering role and the turning down of a white dude from Boston. "Literally" was used to emphasize the exactness of the hypothetical to my reality - less analogous than equal.

With that out of the way, the core of my comment was intended to convey the message "I can believe that there is a lot of hidden bias out there in the world, based on the stories someone generally considered to be at risk of many biases has told me."

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#952

Post by csomar »

Khaine wrote: post #831
nsxwolf wrote: post #456

I shut my mouth at work and go along with this stuff because I have no choice. I have a family to take care of. I've accepted this. But man, why do they always throw in the line about striving to make the workplace a "diverse and inclusive culture where everyone can bring their full and authentic self"? Everyone knows that's a goddamn lie. I almost want to cry when I read that - it makes me so angry. I haven't been a…

I know the feeling. At my work, the leader has started calling us a family, and that we should be a family and treat each other like family and bring our authentic selves to work. I'm not a leader, I'm a mother to 2 children, a daughter to an immigrant blah blah blah. Fuck off with that bullshit. Doesn't anyone know what it means to be a professional any more? I don't care about your beliefs, as long as you come to w…

It gets worse Khaine. New startups and companies being run by Millennial are a joke. They are too deep into this; and they encourage and nurture a culture of mediocrity.

But everything will eventually even out. Remember when it was claimed that QE will not bring inflation because MMT? How did that turn out Morties?

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#953

Post by stevendeluth »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #823
dijonman2 wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a hiring manager I have substantial pressure to hire incompetent people to meet quotas. I confronted my recruiter in front of witnesses and was partially shunned. I have been hiring for many years, and I truly pay no attention to gender or ethnicity. Now I am forced to. It’s an insult to those who earned their position. It’s an insult to me as I am less and less likely to get a new job because I won’t fit quotas.…

> Now I am forced to. You should think about legal recourse here. If this isn't stomped out it can result in real racism pretty quickly. It has to, because people aren't treated fairly and it creates adversary between people of different skin color. This is bad management that needs to be replaced.

I was just interviewed at Microsoft last week and at the end of a very good interview the interviewer said welp we are looking to diversify our team more. Best of luck to you.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#954

Post by stevendeluth »

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #653
telltruth wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a silver lining. This DEI thing is now causing massive influx of sub-par employees in big tech. This is not because minority is sub-par but because hiring practices incentivize sacrificing quality over diversity to make your numbers and get your bonuses. Everyone winks at others and they say we don't sacrifice quality but it is not possible when you have limited window for headcount and your VP is sending yo…

Assuming you’re right and not unfairly discounting people who look or think different due to your prejudices, this just hurts mega-businesses profitability right? What’s the measurable material harm to you exactly? Can you prove it or do you just feel it? Still assuming you’re right, and not prejudiced, why is giving historically disadvantaged people a crutch to lean on so bad? Won’t at least some of them thrive and…

You are assuming that people who need hand outs are all not white. That appears to me to be pretty racist in itself. I know many poor white Americans that don't even have Internet. I also grew up poor. My grandmom was Italian and treated poorly when she arrived in America. She got called the n word because her skin was dark and couldn't go to school because of it as well. Well here I am 80 years later. White male that has worked very hard to get myself out of where I was only to be confronted with people talking about the color of skin and not Merritt. We are all in this together.

I put a lot of work into my life to get where I am. I did a lot of things I didn't want to and sacrificed a lot. I had a really good hour long interview at Microsoft last week and was told at the end that they are looking to diversify their team more and best of luck to you.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#955

Post by cscurmudgeon »

omginternets wrote: post #907
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is preferring Indians in this diversity game. Will you defend “diversity" that would rather hire a rich inner-city American kid versus a poor brahmin in need of a leg-up?

In academic admissions, you're probably right. In tech hiring, I have seen it firsthand, on multiple occasions.

I have seen the opposite of that firsthand several times and, and unlike your observation, it is public policy of many large companies.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#956

Post by omginternets »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #949
omginternets wrote: post #907

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In academic admissions, you're probably right. In tech hiring, I have seen it firsthand, on multiple occasions.

Totally not anecdotal lol

Contrary to the parent /s

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#957

Post by majani »

paperwasp42 wrote: post #565
omginternets wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relatedly: I cannot defend the kind of "diversity" that would rather hire a rich brahmin than an inner-city American kid in need of a leg-up, just to fulfill some backwards skin-color quota. It's obscene, and insulting to all parties involved. I also worry that this nonsense will erode support for the kind of diversity I do defend, or worse, prompt some kind of revanchist backlash against visible minorities in genera…

> I also worry that this nonsense will erode support for the kind of diversity I do defend, or worse, prompt some kind of revanchist backlash against visible minorities in general. As a women in tech, I am feeling the backlash. I have seen a huge increase in the amount of skepticism of my abilities that I face from people who haven't worked with me before. And the worst part of it is that there's actually logic behin…

Of late I have been seeing people going viral for posting some incredible career trajectories. Usually involving someone in another career who made the switch to tech by doing a bootcamp, and within a year they were in FAANG. Now that I think about it, they were all people who fit into diversity quotas and were probably diversity hires

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#958

Post by hitex »

stevendeluth wrote: post #953
raxxorraxor wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now I am forced to. You should think about legal recourse here. If this isn't stomped out it can result in real racism pretty quickly. It has to, because people aren't treated fairly and it creates adversary between people of different skin color. This is bad management that needs to be replaced.

I was just interviewed at Microsoft last week and at the end of a very good interview the interviewer said welp we are looking to diversify our team more. Best of luck to you.

So why did they invite you to the interview in the first place if you are not diverse enough?

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#959

Post by stevendeluth »

hitex wrote: post #958
stevendeluth wrote: post #953

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just interviewed at Microsoft last week and at the end of a very good interview the interviewer said welp we are looking to diversify our team more. Best of luck to you.

So why did they invite you to the interview in the first place if you are not diverse enough?

I didn't disclose my race because getting a job should not be about the color of my skin but my merit.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#960

Post by deanCommie »

unconed wrote: post #816
juliendorra wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "things have become like this"? I obviously don’t know your age but the software industry (and other fields) has been extremely sexist since decades (at least the 80s). The efforts to explicitly reign in the sexism in tech are quite recent (late 2000, early 2010, and even later in France where I live). My point is that what you perceive as a recent reaction might be the same old sexist culture con…

What evidence of this sexist culture do you have? There seem to be a few classic stories that have been spun: - that a gender imbalance in students or employees automatically implies sexism - that being casual about sex is automatically sexist - that not favoring a feminine, talkative, consensus-first working style is sexist - that women deciding to leave tech means they are being "chased out" I don't find any of the…

You made a lot of arguments in your post, and it's going to take a lot of work to unpack them all.

But I'll say right away - starting your post with "What evidence of sexism do you have?" is a bit laughable. There's a lot of evidence of sexism in our industry. But it seems that you are unwilling to consider any of it. If you truly believe that western feminism is the REAL sexism, do you think there is a chance to find any middle ground or agreement on this discussion?

I have something to say about almost everything you wrote, but I'll pick the thread on one spot that I think has the most potential:

> It seems like misogyny usually just means "something a woman hates" as opposed to actual overt discrimination and mistreatment

Well...yeah? If there is a concept, or behaviour that men happen to not mind, but women on average/generally/mostly do, and an environment that contains mostly men either actively promotes that concept/behaviour, or tacitly ignores it by looking the other way, that is going to create an environment that is hostile to women!

Now you might say, that's not inherently a problem. But what if this is an environment that doesn't inherently benefit from an imbalanced gender ratio. Then those behaviours, that hostility, is actually actively funnelling viable capable women out of the environment, and there is no meritocracy to ensure that it can occur.

> Many of these same activists now even refuse to define what a woman actually is,

Casual transphobic dog whistle? Disappointing.

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