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Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions

bbc.com

951–960 of 1001 posts

Re: Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions

#951
post #895

Every surpreme court article makes me hate this community a bit more. There is far too much obsessing over "their logic is consistent" and far too much intentional ignorance of the fact that they chose which logic to bring to bear on which issues, and that there are many other possible ways to apply consistent logic. Their logic can be consistent and they can still be partisans, looking to implement a specific agenda…

I feel like people don't actually realize what the consequences of this will really be. https://today.law.harvard.edu/scotus-preview-west-virginia-v... > “Supporters of the major questions doctrine would characterize this as taking power away from agencies and giving it to Congress, because they would say Congress is democratically accountable, and therefore should be making the major policy decisions,” says Goho. “C…

No post body was provided.

Re: Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions

#952

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Headlines about Supreme Court cases are almost uniformly misleading, because they suggest the Court is making decisions on policy issues rather than legal issues. This is the naive version of how SCOTUS works that they teach us in elementary school. History has shown that the Supreme Court is a political body with its own political agenda. The doctrine and precedent cited is used as a justification for whatever pol…

The majority of justices on the current Supreme Court have been doing a good job of sticking to the law rather than attempting to enact policy. What you’re describing is a good criticism of the mid-20th century Supreme Court, but the current Court has done a good job of rolling back those excesses.

> The majority of justices on the current Supreme Court have been doing a good job of sticking to the law rather than attempting to enact policy.

_in your opinion_, you mean?

Re: Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions

#953

Every surpreme court article makes me hate this community a bit more. There is far too much obsessing over "their logic is consistent" and far too much intentional ignorance of the fact that they chose which logic to bring to bear on which issues, and that there are many other possible ways to apply consistent logic. Their logic can be consistent and they can still be partisans, looking to implement a specific agenda…

I support this ruling not because I think that the EPA shouldn't have the authority to cap emissions, but because I agree with the Court that Congress never intended to grant the EPA that authority. I believe strongly that the executive authorities--be that police, FBI, NSA, ICE, or EPA--should not have the ability to creatively interpret laws. If we allow them to do that, we open the door to innumerable abuses. So,…

The "creative" you speak of is a bullshit stance because congress isn't a computer, never will be, and all you're doing is not liking the outcome which is what the parent is explaining: rationalizing your bias after the fact.

Others would say they are implementing the details of broad brushed Congressional laws.

Re: Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions

#954

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, whatever. These guys are great at espousing some high minded principle that happens to fit into whatever the desired outcome happens to be. These reactionaries represent the dead hand of a generation of people who control or seek to control to guide society to meet their own generational/dynastic wealth and power goals. I’m sure you’ll feel differently as the assaults on the 14th amendment continue and things l…

If recent SCOTUS decisions are a dead generation reaching out of the grave to get their way in the end against the united consensus of the living, then the living should have no trouble sorting Congress out and getting the right laws and amendments passed the proper way. Of course, the truth is that living generations are not nearly so united against this as you seem to be suggesting. There certainly isn't enough con…

The more reactionary elements are very concerned and talk openly about things like replacement theory as a call to action.

It’s a prime motivation for some of the more extreme positions and differentiates the 2020 right winger from a 1980 conservative.

Re: Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions

#955
post #232
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm old enough to remember when I could grudgingly accept that there was some wisdom in decisions I disagreed with, even if perhaps not enough to sway me. But I could see something argued intelligently. This is just nakedly partisan stuff going on. I think viewing it through that lens - "we're going to do what we want because it fits our politics" - makes the most sense.

> This is just nakedly partisan stuff going on. The problem is much of the left’s gains over the last few decades have been based on shaky legal/constitutional ground. Even leftist judges like Ginsberg admitted that, and they were counting on the mistakes being in place for too long to correct (precedent). Now all that technical debt is coming back to kick our ass. This isn’t the end of the world though, Congress can…

> much of the left’s gains over the last few decades have been based on shaky legal/constitutional ground.

As opposed to shaky electoral/gerrymandering grounds

Re: Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions

#956

The fundamental issue is, is carbon dioxide an air pollutant? This is not so much about interpretation of the Clean Air Act IMO, as it is about peoples' opposing views on carbon dioxide as a significant contributor to climate change. Those who believe carbon dioxide absolutely is contributing to climate change and harming our planet would likely classify carbon dioxide as an air pollutant and thus believe the EPA has…

I don't think that's at question in this case. It was decided in Massachusetts v. EPA that EPA is required to make that determination itself. Three years after that decision, EPA basically answered "we think it is."

The court isn't bringing any of that up in this opinion. They are looking only at whether Congress specifically delegated EPA the power to regulate emissions by means of "generation shifting". The majority opinion was "no, they didn't."

Re: Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions

#957

Every surpreme court article makes me hate this community a bit more. There is far too much obsessing over "their logic is consistent" and far too much intentional ignorance of the fact that they chose which logic to bring to bear on which issues, and that there are many other possible ways to apply consistent logic. Their logic can be consistent and they can still be partisans, looking to implement a specific agenda…

What the court is engaged in is an extreme case of motivated reasoning, sinking almost to the level of what the legal profession calls parallel construction. In fact there were many logically consistent arguments for this decision, and many logically consistent arguments for the dissent. They're all right there, both sides, in the text. It's why dissents are written and preserved. Often a point raised in a dissent for one case becomes more important than the ruling itself. Anyone who gets too carried away with the logical consistency of the majority opinion is ignoring the record. Which brings us to the terms I introduced earlier.

When contradictory evidence or arguments are present, it's easy to pick those that support your predetermined position and ignore those that don't. It's nothing to be proud of, and in fact it's usually considered shameful. In formal debate it's a sure route to an ignominious loss. Parallel construction is the equivalent in the legal world, and equally condemned. It's when the prosecution comes into possession of evidence illegally, and then makes up an alternative provenance or reasoning because admitting the truth would get their case summarily thrown out.

This is what the conservative wing of the supreme court has been doing. They're picking and choosing, highlighting pretty dubious arguments and ignoring those which its own principles (e.g. judicial restraint, stare decisis) would give more weight. It's even more despicable for them than it is for prosecutors. Anyone who praises the "consistency" of this decision is at best falling for the trick, or just as often repeating it themselves because the decision supports a view they held long before they ever heard of this case. This discussion is full of such motivated reasoning, as most here are, and I'm pretty sure that's the cause of parent's contempt. If this is truly supposed to be hacker news full of curious people and not just another political rag disguised as a tech-news site, you all need to do better.

Re: Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions

#958

Every surpreme court article makes me hate this community a bit more. There is far too much obsessing over "their logic is consistent" and far too much intentional ignorance of the fact that they chose which logic to bring to bear on which issues, and that there are many other possible ways to apply consistent logic. Their logic can be consistent and they can still be partisans, looking to implement a specific agenda…

As a lawyer, I agree with you whole heartedly. Just because a legal decision recites a sound legal argument doesn't mean that that's the only sound legal argument they could have made. In the same way that a competent lawyer can make the best arguments for either side of a case, a judge could write multiple opinions for the same case that have different outcomes. And all could be just as legitimate from a logic and legal standpoint. But the judge chooses what opinion to write and what outcome they want. All of this makes the study of law kind of silly, because you study a bunch of case law and pretend that there's consistency or logic that ties them together, but really it's largely driven by the individual personalities more than some platonic ideal of what the law should be. It's a liberal art, not a science.

Re: Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions

#959
post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> left biased BBC article This reminds me how was Ben Shapiro burned by conservative guy from BBC. And Shapiro called him 'liberal'. Anything that is not regressive is by default left/liberal for these people. You have made God from your Constitution while in other countries it is an tool. You have just one more party than China and call your self beacon of democracy. Tunnel vision.

If you can't see this article as left-biased, then you have some serious blinders on. If you're willing to take them off for a second, here are some major bias flags:

* It only quotes one legal expert, Hajin Kim, who paints the ruling in a negative light. There are no quotes from any other legal expert with a differing viewpoint.

* It quotes from the environmental defense fund, which is on the spectrum as extremely leftwing: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-environmental-defense-fund...

* It puts high priority towards telling us how the feelings of environmental groups got hurt: "Environmental groups will be deeply concerned by the outcome as historically the 19 states that brought the case have made little progress on reducing their emissions - which is necessary to limit climate change."

* It quotes from a U.N. official, which is of course only going to have negative things to say about it. The U.N. could care less about whether a policy hurts America. The BBC also fails to mention how similar policies in the EU have led to more dependence on Russian oil, which was absolutely disastrous in hindsight. Don't knock out your current energy infrastructure when you have nothing to replace it with.

* The BBC focuses on what it perceives as the Supreme court bucking decades of precedent: "For decades, the Supreme Court has held that judges should generally defer to government agencies when interpreting federal law."

* The BBC says absolutely nothing about how the other side feels about this ruling, another major sign of their bias. Take a look at a conservative source: https://www.dailywire.com/news/supreme-court-rules-against-b...

“We joined WV to fight the EPA’s overreach & challenged the agency’s overly-broad interpretation allowing them to regulate almost any part of the economy, the consequences would lead to higher utility bills, job loss and overall increased energy prices. This is a huge win for MO!”

“This is a big victory for small businesses and a big defeat for the Biden administration and the regulatory state,” Ortiz said in a statement provided to The Daily Wire. “Whether it’s greenhouse gas emissions, Covid lockdowns, vaccine mandates, or scores of other issues, the Biden administration keeps claiming authority it does not possess, as the Supreme Court ruled today.”

The BBC doesn't care at all about the sheer economic damage that would have been dealt to the relevant states. The BBC also doesn't care at all about the fact that the federal bureaucracy has grown staggeringly in size and power over the past decades, or what that means for our constitutional republic. The BBC doesn't care that our courts have been ruling very much for the left for the past several decades and we are just starting to see a reversal back towards the center. And that's fine. The BBC is in Britain and shouldn't be expected to care about these things. But please don't pretend they are not left-biased on this issue.

Re: Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions

#960
post #935

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and its frustrating to see this crowd continually push the point that congress needs to grant explicit powers to the EPA when they already know that every single Republican politician is against moving the needle on climate change. This case was filed by 19 Republican lead states which constitute 44% of emissions in the US and is a multiyear effort by conservative climate change deniers[1] Any significant law…

Couldn't Congress roll out a clarification of this rule quickly? They own the big three right now, so it would be pretty easy if they kept any fluff out of the legislation.

I would like to introduce you to Senator Joe Manchin. No substantive climate change legislation is going to pass the Senate. Stop pretending like it's possible.
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