Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles • Hacker News Board

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#951

Post by mxkopy » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 1:34 PM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #914

ramraj07 wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So someone who plays drums in band or throws an egg shaped “ball” (or worse, hits themselves in the head like rams) is contributing to the society than someone who focuses on tests? I’m not even on the side of the Asian families that force their children to study and study alone, but your comment seems to suggest that somehow they don’t have the right to (or are abusing a system). Sounds a bit prejudiced. In the end…

I think it was intended to be prejudiced - he was sarcastically saying that the parents don't care about integrating into the culture, they think they can attain success for their children with tests alone. I'm a child of Jewish immigrants. I had NO planned school/extracurricular activities except for music. I had these requirements from elementary school through high school: (1) Never get less than a B+ on any test…

>What this sarcastic poster means about the society you live in, is ultimately very shady. The society he lives in is lazy. It doesn't want to study or work. It cries foul when people ask for "welfare handouts", but meanwhile, he is asking for a welfare handout from us the people who work and study harder - by means of claiming it's his culture and we're just here doing all the math right while failing to integrate. That's just not true.

Exactly this.

And you know what, maybe these immigrants that can't demonstrate their ability to play rugby have more important things to do, like actual work for some purpose other than virtue signaling or self care/healing from dealing with existential threats.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#952

Post by bannedbybros » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 1:35 PM UTC

outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

No post body was provided.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#953

Post by adamhp » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 1:38 PM UTC

lightup wrote: post #566

gourabmi wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious. How many universities did he apply to ? How many accepts/ rejects from that pool?

He applied to [redacted] State, Rice, UNC, Duke, and U of MN - Twin Cities. Accepted at [redacted] State (they have a formula for everyone). He also got their highest out of state "scholarship" - which is more like a break on out of state tuition - no reciprocity with MN. No word from Duke yet but that probably won't happen either. Complete disaster for his future and really a shot to his otherwise happy and optimist…

He could consider a year of community college and reapply? I went straight from community college to a top 10 public university and it was the best decision I ever made. Some might even have guaranteed admission? Good way to save money too.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#954

Post by civilized » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 1:39 PM UTC

agar wrote: post #723

outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

This thread is filled with people arguing false dichotomies: "test scores" vs. "fancy extra-curriculars" or "rich experiences" vs. "working class experiences." I recently saw one child into college, and have another on the way. I've spoken to many admissions officers, counselors, and similar folks making admissions choices for public and private universities. To a one, they all claim to be looking for two things: (1)…

> I recently saw one child into college, and have another on the way. I've spoken to many admissions officers, counselors, and similar folks making admissions choices for public and private universities.

> To a one, they all claim to be looking for two things: (1) students who will succeed at their university, and (2) a diverse range of students to avoid a monoculture.

> This means they try to look at the "whole student."

In the 1920s, "look at the whole student" meant "exclude Jews". In fact, the whole modern "holistic" admissions process was brought into being to exclude Jews [1]. And the "holism" of the process was instrumental to creating the desired racial bias, as "holism" affords tremendous room for subtle biases to entrench themselves. This persists today in Harvard's "personal rating" bias against Asians, which launders anti-Asian bias out to the wider society that rates those students.

I do not think that admissions officers are hellbent on racial exclusion today, but I also do not think that admissions officers can be trusted to describe the full nature and biases of their processes.

[1] https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/dobbin/files/2007_asq_kara...

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#955

Post by civilized » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 1:41 PM UTC

tqi wrote: post #894

agar wrote: post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread is filled with people arguing false dichotomies: "test scores" vs. "fancy extra-curriculars" or "rich experiences" vs. "working class experiences." I recently saw one child into college, and have another on the way. I've spoken to many admissions officers, counselors, and similar folks making admissions choices for public and private universities. To a one, they all claim to be looking for two things: (1)…

> Some of the least interesting students are "box checkers" who have a bunch of disconnected extra-curriculars that don't show passion, direction, or a proclivity towards success. If a student defines "success" as "getting into college," then what will they do once they get there? Probably flounder. This comment really rubbed me the wrong way. Sorry these "box checkers" worked too hard to follow the rules of the game…

> your own idiotic biases

we don't talk like that here.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#956

Post by csa » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 1:47 PM UTC

biohacker85 wrote: post #904

csa wrote: post #883

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've asked similar questions to people who hold this view of "standardized testing is racist" The most defensible explanation that folks who claim standardized tests are racist is that the range of scores are not approximately equal across races. In theory, a “fair” non-racist test would have similar ranges of scores for all races. There are a lot of assumptions baked into the argument, many with which I disagree,…

> ...the range of scores are not approximately equal across races. In theory, a “fair” non-racist test would have similar ranges of scores for all races. This is a good example of what I meant by "they are not oblivious to the seemingly glaring contradiction to some of their solutions to racism". If you follow that argument to its logical conclusion you have to explain why races don't have similar ranges while also a…

> yet this doesn't explain why these folks focus primarily on race

In my experience:

- Race-based arguments seem to be easier for folks in general to understand than SES-based arguments. Race-based oppression is something that all Americans learn about in school, while SES-based oppression has been occurring non-stop since the start of the country, and it is not covered nearly as much in schools.

- It’s easier to get social support, political support, and/or funding for race-based projects, while SES projects are tougher.

- One possible reason the above two are true is that highlighting SES discrepancies reveals that the concept of American “equality”, even for the majority race, is a myth. This idea of Americans being equal and having equal access to institutions is, imho, an American value that many Americans hold dear and believe to be true, despite significant evidence to the contrary.

Just my 2 cents…

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#957

Post by nemo44x » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

fatjokes wrote: post #936

nemo44x wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, when you're doing something that is politically/ideologically unpopular or in the minority I don't think they are though. I think there would be massively popular and wide support for this. You're seeing it in SF right now as the school board is being overthrown for trying to ruin the school system in the name of "equity" or some other garbage reason. The people finally found out and organized. All this woke…

The problem is that the wokes tend to be loud. A small, vocal group can really ruin your day on Twitter (unavoidable for a leader these days). The only ones willing to speak against them are the hard-right Fox-News Q-anon types. The folks who may be against them but are otherwise reasonable tend to stay quiet until they reach the anonymous safety of the voting booth lest they be similarly targeted. Then again the MIT…

It's not so much that they are loud but that they are well organized. A small but well organized group will always have an outsized voice compared to the unorganized majority. It's why there's always a minority of elites in just about every type of social situation from a classroom to a country.

Of course, the Woke's aren't just a subculture but embedded deep into our elite universities and prestigious media organizations. But even there, they are a small but well organized group that can be rooted out and disposed of. It just takes organization and a bit of bravery and soon the masses will outwardly support the reaction to Wokeness.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#958

Post by MrMan » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 1:56 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #642

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

the things to which you allude are actually an imitation of WASP culture, WASPS dont strive by doing the things they do naturally. you study music/art because it helps you be a better person, not because it (these days) might help you get into a school you should be able to get into anyway. you do service work because you believe that it is important to give back.

using this things as credentials to gain entry into schools is a late development.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#959

Post by lalwanivikas » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 1:58 PM UTC

fsckboy wrote: post #872

lalwanivikas wrote: post #801

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a wealthy one who thought he would leave his fortune to MIT A tangential question, so I apologize in advance but how did you build your fortune? I am curious if it was not through entrepreneurship.

for privacy reasons I remain non-specific and/or obfuscated about true facts of my life. However, after MIT and some entrepreneurship I did also study finance and that--along with lucky timing and my attraction to my own outside the box radical ideas and/or perhaps more luck--grew a modest nest egg into a large number of eggs in one basket.

That's so obfuscated that one needs an MIT degree to decode it :D

Anyway, I am happy for you my man! You have achieved something that most of us just dream of at this point :-)

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#960

Post by JumpCrisscross » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #642

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

> notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture

This concept finds heritage in Greco-Roman tradition moreso than anything Anglo or Saxon. It's also not uncommon for non-European civilizations to have emphasized educating their elites in both aesthetic and practical matters. For good reason. If your job is to lead a civilization, people are your tool of trade.

The tradition in America has racist--specifically, anti-Semitic--roots. But that doesn't mean we have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. If there's something sorely lacking in modern American culture, it's attention to matters in civic, philosophical and possibly even literary.