Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

951–960 of 1001 posts

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#951

Post by wolverine876 »

civilized wrote: post #283
wolverine876 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the SAT is increasingly considered "racist" because it reveals racial disparities in learning Could you provide an example of that claim? Usually the SAT is considered discriminatory because the way the testing is done favors wealthy, well-educated people, and gives negative results for equally talented people who lack those advantages. Colleges have found that the SAT is excluding a large part of the talent pool.…

As the other comment points out, the obsession with the flaws of the SAT completely ignores the fact that every single other method of evaluation is even worse, both at identifying promising students and at equity. If you take it away, colleges will happily admit loads of "well-rounded" students with tons of expensive extracurriculars. They will be racially as balanced as possible, but their family incomes will all b…

AFAIK, the SAT is biased against poorer students, including in its structure, in its content (maybe they've fixed that), and because wealthy test-takers can afford test prep courses.

What makes you say that the SAT is the best option for poor applicants?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#952

Post by wolverine876 »

hackernewds wrote: post #430
civilized wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the other comment points out, the obsession with the flaws of the SAT completely ignores the fact that every single other method of evaluation is even worse, both at identifying promising students and at equity. If you take it away, colleges will happily admit loads of "well-rounded" students with tons of expensive extracurriculars. They will be racially as balanced as possible, but their family incomes will all b…

This is the same argument supporting capitalism (which I agree with). Capitalism is the worst system, but it's still better than all else. I think taking away the SAT as criteria will actually enhance racial bias through subjective measures - than the flip

There's plenty of research you can read, as well what colleges have published. What do you think of it?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#953

Post by wolverine876 »

lifeplusplus wrote: post #583
wolverine876 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the SAT is increasingly considered "racist" because it reveals racial disparities in learning Could you provide an example of that claim? Usually the SAT is considered discriminatory because the way the testing is done favors wealthy, well-educated people, and gives negative results for equally talented people who lack those advantages. Colleges have found that the SAT is excluding a large part of the talent pool.…

It seems SAT merely reflects current academic skills. If they developed to that point due to privilege, the test isn't responsible for highlighting it. If college goal is to give limited space to most skilled students then it's an effective method to do that.. isn't it?

> It seems SAT merely reflects current academic skills.

What is that based on, and how do you define academic skills? It may reflect how much time and money you can spend on test prep courses (time is also a problem for poor students who tend to have jobs, take care of siblings for parents with multiple jobs and no day care, etc.). It may reflect test-taking skills in general, which aren't skills of value.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#954

Post by walkhour »

sjg007 wrote: post #914
walkhour wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SAT correlates well with college performance and moreover must be used to obtain the best college performance predictors we have (or something highly correlated with SAT).

Some elite law schools did a study where they admitted underprivileged students with bad LSAT scores and guess what, those students did great and got great jobs.

Do you have the link to the study?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#955

Post by wolverine876 »

ngngngng wrote: post #353
rayiner wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations. Only 2% of Bangladeshis go to college. Are the rest not adults? Indeed, I’d say the opposite is true. Apart from job training, the main function of college in America seems to be extending adolescence and deferring dealing with the real world. 18 year olds in Bangladesh are a lot more “adult” than many college-educated 30-some…

> the main function of college in America seems to be extending adolescence and deferring dealing with the real world. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that it is the other "main function" but ohhh boy does this need to be discussed more. I know a few people that seemingly couldn't break out of college. College gives a clear path forward for years, each time you're admitted into a program. Give that up and wha…

> ohhh boy does this need to be discussed more

It's discussed all the time, for decades.

> I know a few people that seemingly couldn't break out of college.

Many people have trouble moving forward, regardless of college.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#956

Post by 988747 »

TameAntelope wrote: post #899
_y3h9 wrote: post #869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why not choose randomly from them? If an Asian student and a black student both get perfect, identical results from huge amounts of hard work and intelligence, why should the Asian student be discriminated against? What have they done wrong, other than be part of a larger group that tends to put more effort in? Why should they be punished for other groups not putting in the same amount of effort theirs does? How…

Because we can do better than "random" to create superior outcomes for society. Right now, society hurts some racial groups and helps other racial groups. Picking candidates based on their race, once everyone remaining is qualified, helps undo some small part of that societal damage. Improving campus diversity helps the kids too, as it exposes them to a more representative group of people that they're likely to encou…

>> Picking candidates based on their race, once everyone remaining is qualified, helps undo some small part of that societal damage.

Picking candidates based on their race is called "racism". You don't "undo societal damage" against one race by being racist against other races.

>> Besides, if you're so disgusted by racism, you should be in support of trying to correct for it, not opposed.

You correct racism by making society race-blind, not by flipping the direction of racist policies.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#957

Post by dudeman13 »

brigandish wrote: post #257
dudeman13 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can win this one. The free market might as well be a religion for some people. Nothing (not even historical facts) is enough evidence for it to not be the answers to all economic issues. Also, there are lots of US tech people here - with overly inflated salaries compared to approximately everyone else. And everyone knows those winning the game have a tendency to lose empathy and think the game is fa…

> The free market might as well be a religion for some people. Nothing (not even historical facts) is enough evidence for it to not be the answers to all economic issues. Aside from their lack of empathy and the ignoring of the distortion of the supply of labour happening that makes the "non-problem" an actual problem, what is incorrect about pointing out that supply and demand are, if not the most fundamental factor…

A close to most fundamental factor must survive close to most observations of the real world. That's not the case.

Monopolies have historically shit all over the notion that supply and demand is a good model to use for the market.

Much like most economic models, there are underlying assumptions about it that make it bad at actually predicting the real world. Things like perfectly competitive markets (haha), prices being adjustable (haha) and the forces that act on supply/demand being rational (extra hahaha).

There are lots and lots of cases where it fails, like the housing bubble, administered prices and wages.

Still, it might as well be a religion. Afterall, people can say it is close to a most fundamental law about markets with a straight face (despite it failling all the time).

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#958

Post by wolverine876 »

Animats wrote: post #678
lanstin wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an interesting point. My dad entered college having grown up in some pretty fundamentalist, anti-evolution church, and became a doctor and an cosmopolitan sort of intellectual. He switched to a liberal church and learned about Darwin, and all sorts of stuff. But I took Attic Greek and Old English and weird English literary theory and Russian history and medieval history. I don’t directly use that stuff, but i…

Right now, some knowledge of Russian history and 19th century European history is very useful. Because we're in a war that looks like a 19th century war. Like the many wars involving the British Empire, the Imperial State of Germany, the Prussian Empire, the Austria-Hungarian Empire, and France. The era of the Great Powers, engaged in power grabs for reasons people thought were good at the time. That's what we're see…

Also, knowledge of international relations, international law, military command and control in the age of smart munitions, the behavior of autocrats (esp in Russia), 20th century history of Ukraine, Russia's prior invasion of Afganistan (similar in its initial plans) and war in Chechnya, the strengths and weaknesses of military alliances and NATO in particular, Poland's experiences with Russia in WWII and the Cold War, geopolitics particularly in the Black Sea, Russian naval power, politics of American war support, nuclear weapons diplomacy and tactics, modern Russian nuclear weapons tactics ("escalate to de-escalate"), propaganda campaigns, etc. etc. etc.

> In the 19th century, nobody had that all much firepower. Battles were local.

Knowing some history of Napoleon, for example, would help too. :) But yes, your general point is taken. And then 25 years later, WWII ...

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#959

Post by wolverine876 »

andreilys wrote: post #408
sammalloy wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without a well-informed populace, democracy cannot function. Contrary to what you have argued, becoming cultured (in other words, understanding the philosophy, ethics, history, and fundamental assumptions about how and why society functions) are essential skills for taking responsibility, and the lack of these skills is behind virtually every major deficiency in society. College and university were never supposed to…

Without a well-informed populace, democracy cannot function. College campuses have gone through severe idealogical capture, so the idea that going through a 4-year degree leads to a well informed populace is laughable. I would argue that a 4-year peace corps posting in an improvised country would lead to a better informed population than any liberal arts education.

> College campuses have gone through severe idealogical capture

Reactionaries repeat that over and over, which is their most common tactic for any issue. But reptition is not truth, as we have learned well in the Internet age, though that hasn't stopped people from repeating it. Also, the reactionaries main objection seems to be that their own ideology isn't taught (including things like denial of climate change and racism); they insist they are a non-ideological norm and everything else is ideology, again through repetition. Academia requires proof; it's not a place of equity for bad ideas. It's also a place that disrespects the current establishment; again, no ideas get special treatment.

Post reply on HN