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Bitcoin Is Time

dergigi.com

951–960 of 1001 posts

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#951

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the downvote mechanism on HN could use some refinement! Funny thing, when I went to quote the specific HN guideline, I'm almost certain it used to say "Please don't comment about downvotes. It never helps" or something very much like that. But the current guideline says: > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. Which we're all in violation…

It's a request, not an interdiction ;o). I find it occasionally illuminating to discuss meta-aspects but as a general rule the site guidelines are sensible.

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#952

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sir! Are you sure of that argument? Bitcoin is a decentralized protocol for moving value on the internet, that is not useful enough for you sir? Is this hacker news? or lumberjack news? Besides, Horses >>>> Cars. Horses are more useful than Cars. Cars need roads to work, Horses don't.

cars will actually work without tarmac. I tried explaining this to a guy with a merc g wagen and he also didn't believe me.

G wagon? wow, get a load of this rich guy over here.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#953

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a rosy-eyed view. Money is a formalised manifestation of debt, which previously was an informal system of reciprocity and altruism. But formalising this debt with financial and monetary systems destroyed the altruistic part of the arrangement. Graeber explains how money was created by states to enforce its authority and basically coerce people into participation. The anonymity of monetary debt and the…

I thought that "darkness" was slyly implied in the dawkins quote

Maybe not in the quote above but the full Dawkins piece it was taken from is dark enough https://dizzynomics.wordpress.com/2013/05/05/money-as-a-form...

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#954

That was an excellent read! Every time I read about Bitcoin here, I see the "Energy" arguments. Bitcoin was designed to solve a specific problem and it solves that. Even Satoshi himself would not have foreseen the energy requirements for PoW. If we had argued about energy requirements in late 60s we would have never reached Moon or built the LHC. Technological advancements will always need energy. We should be discus…

What problem did bitcoin solve?

Distributed digital money.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#955

I always enjoy conversations with cryptocurrency cognoscenti: "Ok. Assume I have some bitcoin (a bitcoin? bitcoins?). How would I exchange it for, say, a carton of milk?" Don't get me wrong. I'm a math nerd. I think bitcoin is fascinating as a technical achievement, and hope we keep exploring the blockchain idea. However, I also know that bitcoin mania has literally affected global supply chains of computer component…

Presently sell bitcoin for cash, swap cash for milk. Same as for stocks, bonds, gold bars, foreign currency and many other time honoured investments.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#956

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USD (and more importantly, the banking system), also allows for efficient high-volume transfers, reversibility, ID verification, and fraud investigation. None of this is possible with blockchain, by design.

You should tell that to Citibank then, poor guys can't get back their money they accidentally wired: https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/16/business/citibank-revlon-laws...

Which is a case that made headlines because of how unusual it is for this money to not get returned - it relies on an ultra-specific set of circumstances and still could have been decided the other way.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#957

Let me fix that title. Happy to be downvoted into negative territory. I only have 11 points. Go ahead. "Bitcoin Is A Waste of Time (and Resources)" What Bitcoin has done is that it taught people they can come together in a sustained flash mob (like an on-the-fly hedge fund operation) and manipulate the price of speculative assets by creating artificial short-term pump-n-dump type demand. Bitcoin has trained our colle…

Yes I agree, but I think you miss the point. The reality is folks buying bitcoin are also indirectly betting on the failure of our globalised central banking systems. This was the pitch in the early days and it remains a key value proposition. Think of it like this how much reach does a USD have? It’s limited by some factors but all things equal the reach of a USD is pretty good. I can use USD in most African and Asi…

Your comment would have made more sense before everyone had the ability to use their debit/credit cards almost anywhere in the world, meaning the fact that other countries don't take GBP doesn't matter a huge amount at all. Last few times I was abroad if I needed cash I got it out of an ATM in the local currency.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#958
post #955

I always enjoy conversations with cryptocurrency cognoscenti: "Ok. Assume I have some bitcoin (a bitcoin? bitcoins?). How would I exchange it for, say, a carton of milk?" Don't get me wrong. I'm a math nerd. I think bitcoin is fascinating as a technical achievement, and hope we keep exploring the blockchain idea. However, I also know that bitcoin mania has literally affected global supply chains of computer component…

Presently sell bitcoin for cash, swap cash for milk. Same as for stocks, bonds, gold bars, foreign currency and many other time honoured investments.

Yes, but that would also apply if what I had was a used car, rather than bitcoin or gold, etc. The requirement for intermediate conversion to another currency in order to realize value implies that bitcoin isn’t (at least yet) a currency (even in the case where foreign currency isn’t local currency, there is a context where it is currency: that foreign country). I can also buy milk by exchanging my car for local currency, and it has at least some intrinsic value. I realize that the currency/money question is far more complex (my car is neither fungible nor easily portable), but I wonder how many of those speculating on bitcoin’s value appreciate that or are capable of explaining why Bitcoin has any advantages over gold or bearer bonds as a repository of value. Or, for that matter, how speculating in Bitcoin in the 20th century is different from speculating in Tulips in the 17th.

Right now, Bitcoin’s primary economic role seems to be as a demonstration of just how many Greater Fools the internet and social media give us access to.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#959
post #806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone here knew about it when you could mine a few bitcoins per hour on a midrange laptop CPU, but we all thought it was a stupid idea. Here we are, a decade later, still sure it's a stupid idea and increasingly frustrated that the public doesn't understand that.

Or you were wrong back then, and maybe should reconsider? Nah, HN users never reconsider their positions. ;) At least reconsider the proof of stake crypto chains. Not an energy waste.

I was going to respond with a snippy quote about how transferring money around with Eth used to be convenient, but now it sucks

BUT I checked the current gas prices, and it's really not bad. You're looking at $3-4 for 5-10 minutes on a transaction. Too pricey for splitting restaurant bills, but not too bad for sending $100 around

I guess that when you get to $100+ though you have to deal with too much volatility, and there's no good way to hedge against it as a US citizen (at least, I can't find any reputable brokerage/exchange that will let me short small amounts of crypto)

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#960
post #891

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I topped bickering about and promoting bitcoin on HN when the price was around 4500$. The very sentiment then: This is a waste, and a hype, and a bubble, and only criminals use it, tulip mania, gambling addicts. All the nay-sayers back then should realize they actually lost people money! Same. I did cost me dearly to listen to the loud voices on HN, people so certain about themselves that they just couldn't envisio…

>Same. I did cost me dearly to listen to the loud voices on HN, people so certain about themselves that they just couldn't envision the possibility they could be wrong. Are you serious? This isn't a topic that is about being "right or wrong". You can massively criticize Bitcoin and still invest in it, precisely because you understand the risk and are fully aware of its mechanisms and how it relates to other assets. T…

> Are you serious?

I am

> You can massively criticize Bitcoin and still invest in it, precisely because you understand the risk

But that degree of complex thought seems impossible to most geeks: for them, things are either good or bad. It's a very black and white thinking.

> Sorry, but what hubris?

The belief that my opinions about a technology are better than the market evaluation of said technology is just hubris. Clearly, you don't have it, given what you said above. You and me are lucky. Not everybody is.

By talent or by luck, you can be more often right that wrong, or the opposite called "harbinger of doom" in marketting [the ipod "lamer than a nomad" on Slashdot and BTC "no future" on HN makes me think nerds are such harbinger of doom!]

However, it's not 100% of the time. You must keep in mind the possibility you may be wrong. You do. I do. Most people don't. They succumb to magical thinking. It keeps them poor.

> The fact that some people got rich is meaningless because that happens with gambling and lotteries as well

The fact is was predicted, and there are more future testable predictions (flow-to-cash) invalidate this point. It's more like buying tickets to lotteries where, due to the jackpot value, the EV is positive. It then makes sense to buy as many tickets as you can, inducing friends and family to the scheme. Some people became quite rich that way. Of course, it entails risk, as nothing is guaranteed. So you should just invest what you can afford to lose.

> > These negative people are the reason may bright minds will remain chained to a day job at a FANG selling ads and dopamine, instead of really innovating.

> Is this supposed to be a joke? FANG employees with 6 digit salaries who are earning more than enough to afford stocks?

It's not a joke. Try to understand the difference between people working in FANGs and me: they yearly pay is funny money to me, something I did spend before just for the lol of watching a market crash after having too many drinks.

> I said I am not poor but that doesn't change that there is still a huge gap between me and someone who earns $200k per year at that salary

You feel the huge gap between you and them? I feel it too, except in the opposite direction. And even with our slight differences in opinions, I believe we agree more than you think.

> the effort and risk needed to increase your wealth is so low that any dead horse can become financially independent

Exactly this!!

They have to work hard. I don't, money works for me. I'm sufficiently diversified that, barring a WW3 style event, I will not have to care about money ever.

Hell, I don't even care if crypto will keep booming, as I'm out. I give a hand to a few projects here and there, but that's it.

Now I'm studying biology because it's fun and I have time to occupy. Some people worry about a postdoc after their studies, or finding a job? It's like they are from a different world: if I want, after I'm done studying, I will start a lab and hire people to work on stuff I find interesting - and just with funny money I would blow anyway. No need of VC or anything.

This is the difference between sellings ads at a FANG and being really innovative: taking control of the narrative and the destiny. Making changes in the world.

And it is extremely sad to find myself in that position, after having seen many people I believe more deserving than me stuck in jobs. I tried to tell them. They didn't listen. They didn't use their rationality. They let their fear of high variance in price discourage them from even trying to edge their bets.

> The real sadness is that people think that Bitcoin is the solution to economic problems.

The sadness is that it's available for anyone to benefit, yet most people won't - because they don't understand what a profound change of system it entails, and how deep the changes will be. They don't update their beliefs.

Everybody lucky to be alive today can buy just $1,000 of BTC, and be assured to have enough money get a very nice car in a few years. It's not much (sorry, you had to be an early adopter) but in the US, that's still enough to lift someone to middle class, as a working car increase work opportunities.

Someone at a FANG making 200 times that amount per year could certainly save more, say 20k, and get a (inflation adjusted, so present value) cool half million by 2024 - enough to never have to worry about almost anything, and maybe enough to retire in some parts of the country.

But they won't. They are too busy spitting on crypto. If you have time, read this comment: https://wolfstreet.com/2021/02/28/the-big-buy-hype-bitcoin-c... and the original post for lol (the author tries to rationalize his decision of refusing 6 bitcoins, saying he would have sold early)

The comment by Z stands out in the magnitude of ignorance and stupidity of other commenters who read as people from another generation not understanding - not even understanding the fact that they don't understand.

Like I did, this person realized their mistake. Now they did some mental math, came with a price model (slightly higher than the $1M I estimate per BTC, but still reasonable if the network effects open new markets for BTC as a store of value compared to the gold market), and will wait until they have enough money to change their life.

$5M isn't that much, but it has the potential to change that person life according to their own calculation.

And that's the beauty of it: there is still enough gain on table to change the life of everybody alive right now - at least of anyone who does understand the change currently happening!

> Because you are going to need a lot of these if you want everyone to benefit.

Unlike you, I'm not worried about the future generations. They will invent great things standing on our shoulders.

A new world economy based on a BTC deflationary base will also provide them a much better environment, as governments will be constrained by reason and reality again.

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