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Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

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Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#951
I am curious if any lawyers can weigh in on whether or not the reasoning in Blizzard Entertainment Inc. v. Ceiling Fan Software LLC (https://casetext.com/case/blizzard-entmt-inc-v-ceiling-fan-s...) would apply to the antitrust claims made in Epic's lawsuits.

For those unfamiliar with the case, Blizzard filed suit against Ceiling Fan Software for selling a World of Warcraft bot against the WoW EULA. Ceiling Fan Software filed a countersuit claiming Blizzard's monopolistic actions in the market of "add-on hardware/software for WoW" violated antitrust laws.

Blizzard argued that Ceiling Fan Software could not establish an antitrust claim because WoW users voluntarily consented to their EULA and knew the ahead of time when they purchased WoW that they would not be allowed to use third-party bots. The court agreed:

> Blizzard raises this argument in its motion, contending that Defendants cannot establish antitrust claims based on its users' voluntary consent to the EULA and TOU. (Mot. Br. 22–23.) Although Blizzard does not argue this point in the market power analysis, the Court finds that this discussion is applicable to whether the market power requirement is established. Blizzard cites Newcal, Queen City Pizza, Inc. v. Domino's Pizza, Inc., 124 F.3d 430, 441 (3d Cir.1997), and Apple Inc. v. Psystar Corp., 586 F.Supp.2d 1190, 1201 (N.D.Cal.2008), to show that Defendants cannot base its claims on the aftermarket restrictions. ( See Opp'n Br. 17.) These cases explain that the law prohibits an antitrust claimant from asserting an antitrust claim “resting on market power that arises solely from contractual rights that customers knowingly and voluntarily gave to the defendant” when they purchased the initial tying product.

...

> Based on the allegations in the FACC, users agreed to the terms of the EULA and TOU during the initial contract they sign with Blizzard regarding the use of WoW. Blizzard is entitled to condition the use of WoW on such restrictions, and any resulting market power in the aftermarket cannot be the basis for antitrust claims. The only reason why Blizzard or its licensees allegedly hold market power in the aftermarket is because Blizzard users agree not to use any unauthorized WoW add-ons. It can be inferred that users therefore agree to only use authorized WoW add-ons that advance play, and agreeing to this inherently gives Blizzard power over any market for such products. Based on the case law discussed, it is clear that such a contractually mandated monopoly over an aftermarket is not a legally cognizable market. Because the market power allegations fail, Defendants have not adequately plead antitrust counterclaims under the Sherman and Clayton Acts. Moreover, since Defendants' UCL counterclaim is based those antitrust claims, that counterclaim also fails.

If the reasoning in that case applies here, I don't see how Epic doesn't lose both lawsuits? If Apple's App Store policies are known by the consumer in advance of purchasing an iPhone, and Apple's "market power" in the aftermarket of "iOS App Distribution" is based on the iPhone's EULA saying you can only install apps from the Apple App Store, wouldn't the same reasoning apply and Epic's antitrust claim would fail because "a contractually mandated monopoly over an aftermarket is not a legally cognizable market"?

Note: the Apple Inc. v. Psystar Corp (https://casetext.com/case/apple-2) case cited above is also highly relevant, possibly even moreso than the Blizzard case. It's about whether or not "Mac OS" and "computer hardware that runs Mac OS" are two separate markets and whether Apple's monopoly over the distribution of Mac OS results in antitrust liability in the aftermarket of "hardware that runs Mac OS". The court ruled in Apple's favor, concluding similarly that Apple's market power in the latter market was derived from its EULA and therefore was not an allowable basis for an antitrust claim, because customers "knowingly agree to the challenged restraint."

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#953

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's actually Apple vs. Users. Apple has been taking us for a ride this whole time. Oh please. Nobody who actually uses Apple feels that way. Though I agree they should allow a way to sideload apps. One of the downsides of being primarily an iOS dev is not being able to participate in activities like game-jams because there's no way to casually share my stuff with other users. > Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the…

> they do a lot to curtail scummy developer practices. Which is excellent. Apple taking a cut for apps I have no problem with. They have support, I trust them with privacy/security and so on. That costs money. The interesting discussion is how much apple can claim to own a part of profits made in the apps, by selling content (in-app purchases). On one hand: if a game is free for a trial, and you can unlock the full g…

On one hand, I get where you're coming from.

On the other hand, if they offer a recipe app for free (because it contains no recipes, and let's face it, that's how you get quick user interest), then purchase recipes for $1.x each to cover the amortised app creation cost, you're basically just sidestepping the app store cut by any other name.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#954

It's not Apple vs. Fortnite. It's actually Apple vs. Users. Apple has been taking us for a ride this whole time. We pay damn much and buy the phone. It is the user's property from then on. What the user install's and uninstall's from his phone should be his decision. Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the app store running is forgivable. But 30% digging into users pocket is unpardonable. Apple is no longer the underdog…

What nonsense. As an Apple customer, the App store is the number one reason I use them - I dont want malware or scummy developers on my phone and I am happy with Apple charging a fee to developers in this manner. It's not like anyone going to switch phones because your app is not on there. Your app is just one of many other apps I use on my phone. Developers are very much looking at this the wrong way - the 30% fee i…

> I dont want malware or scummy developers on my phone

Despite what many folks say, the App Store review process doesn't protect from bad developer behavior. See the various controversies surrounding social media apps that used many shady tracking techniques. And those apps are among the most popular... you'd think they would be "reviewed" more thoroughly!

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#955

Let’s be honest, this has been coming for a while, like the ever increasing length, irritation and regularity of YouTube ads, Apple has been training you to accept an App Store only Mac. My guess is the Arm Macs will knock everyone’s socks off with freakish thinness, unreal battery life and performance, be extremely cheap and completely lock down the computer to Apple taking 30% of every piece of software you purchas…

I don't think Apple want to be seen as a producer of cheap products. But I agree, there is a risk that Apple locks down its platform even more.

There are rumours the new Macbook will be $799, them being cheaper with the same profit margin means Apple makes more money. So still not cheap but extremely good value rather than premium pricing will sell more units.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#956

Apologies for the extreme swearing that ensues. Wow, I would have hoped for better support from the HN community. Instead there are apologists after apologists. So what if Epic is big. Really, seriously shouldn't we have had alternative app stores available form the official ones. Why is this even a point of debate? All the time we hear stories of people one of our own getting fucked by these app stores and their lor…

Couldn’t agree more. Also fuck you for writing it from a throwaway account.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#957
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The model makes sense for a console, as it's a very specialized device. A smartphone or a tablet are much closer to a general computing device. How many times has Apple said the iPad is a laptop replacement?

I disagree it makes sense on a console. Phones can be used to: -communicate -consume media -browse the web -play games Consoles can be used to: -play games -consume media -browse the web -communicate I fail to see the difference to be honest.

Why is a computer different then? Would a MacBook Pro that had the same restrictions be acceptable?

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#958

Such a staged drama by Epic Games. They even had a video ready to go!

>They even had a video ready to go!

The beauty of their main technology product, a realtime engine is that it can create videos like that on much smaller timelines than traditional CG or a live shoot.

Honestly with the right talent that could have been pulled together surprisingly fast.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#959

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Customers do have the right to install whatever they want. Apple just doesn’t have to facilitate making it super easy for them to do that if they don’t think it contributes to the health of the platform & their business model.

Super easy? There is no way to install an app in your iPhone to export you iMessages or render websites using Gecko short of exploiting it.

If you want a messaging app that’s easier to hack you can always download one. See: Jeff Bezos‘ WhatsApp hacked

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#960

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30% of subscriptions/coin purchases is too much. Possibly warranted for actual app sales due to the review process, but after the app is sold 30% of every subsequent payment is a protection racket.

10% is a normal'ish partner cut for providing a platform for others to transact on (ignoring money transfers services). 30% is laughable, long term. Not even a "one more thing" cut to 29%, lol, ever!

Thats when you pay your own way on distribution.
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