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US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

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Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#941

Post by account42 »

rigrassm wrote: post #472
cameldrv wrote: post #74

I’ve seen a lot of people on the internet over the years say things like “the government can’t make x illegal, it’s just y.” For example, the government can’t make wiping your phone at the border illegal, it’s just punching four numbers into your phone, just like a pin, only a different four numbers, which could just have well been your pin. U.S. law though is highly non-autistic and what you were trying to do is jus…

Please elaborate on how US law isn't "autistic".

He did in the second clause of that sentence.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#942

Post by account42 »

iamnothere wrote: post #745
coldtea wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general a government can do whatever they can get away with. The rest (believing they can't do this or that, because it's in some constitutional document, or violates a basic right) is sovereign citizen kind of self-delusion.

If a government operates outside its remit, competing forces (opposition parties, civil society, counter-elites, foreign influences) use that as an opportunity to gain power by calling attention to the violation. “The law” may be a fuzzy illusion, but it’s delineating a real social boundary. Legal processes are a way of processing that conflict symbolically rather than jumping straight to open warfare. But you better…

Which is the reason that governments are clamping down hard on private communication - so that they can nib the "open warfare" part in the bud before it can be organized enough to become a threat. I'm (not) looking forward to the first cyber civil war to find out how well that will work out for them.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#943

Post by account42 »

razorbeamz wrote: post #315
cameldrv wrote: post #74

I’ve seen a lot of people on the internet over the years say things like “the government can’t make x illegal, it’s just y.” For example, the government can’t make wiping your phone at the border illegal, it’s just punching four numbers into your phone, just like a pin, only a different four numbers, which could just have well been your pin. U.S. law though is highly non-autistic and what you were trying to do is jus…

Good luck proving in a court what he was trying to do though.

Turns out that courts don't need mathematically sound proofs and if everyone in the room agrees that you deliberately wiped your phone then that's what you will be judged on.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#944

Post by account42 »

aucisson_masque wrote: post #538
sfRattan wrote: post #25

Ultimately, when you choose to enter a duress PIN that will wipe your device, you have to recognize that choice may have legal consequences. I don't like the amount of power our government has at the national border when it comes to detaining and pressuring citizens, but our Constitution explicitly grants it at least some of the power it now exercises in that context. If your threat model includes US state actors at…

> 1. Don't travel with anything you can't afford to lose on device. This means setting up travel-specific password managers and hardware keys for a subset of your accounts that you absolutely need to access while abroad, and being prepared to reset those passwords and disable those hardware keys very quickly once home. > 2. Review past legal cases against travelers and identify what behaviors the government considers…

Talk about overreacting. How likely do you think border control are going to spend any more time on some random schmuck than necessary? If you're afraid about remote risks like that then definitely don't leave your home at all (except that's also risky).

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#945

Post by account42 »

9935c101ab17a66 wrote: post #883
pageandrew wrote: post #867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian border control has the legal authority to search your phone and you are obligated to provide a password.

Are you a Canadian lawyer? I did some research and your statement doesn’t hold up. CBSA policy does state you are obligated to provide your password if they are conducting a lawful device examination, however they cannot do it arbitrarily, and they must have a legal basis for searching the device. > CBSA policy states that examinations of personal devices should not be conducted as a matter of routine; such searches…

US CBP is also not doing phone searches as a matter of routine.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#946

Post by account42 »

sfRattan wrote: post #25

Ultimately, when you choose to enter a duress PIN that will wipe your device, you have to recognize that choice may have legal consequences. I don't like the amount of power our government has at the national border when it comes to detaining and pressuring citizens, but our Constitution explicitly grants it at least some of the power it now exercises in that context. If your threat model includes US state actors at…

> We Americans are fortunate to carry powerful passports and enjoy relatively easy international travel but, for better or worse

There actually not that special, requiring a visa in 35 countries compared to 25/26 for most European passports: https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php

Unrestricted access to the US is probably the bigger advantage you get.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#947

Post by account42 »

8note wrote: post #349
dyauspitr wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more like bringing the pepper across and then quickly swallowing it when they ask you to look at it.

which also would be fine?

Only if you ignore the "when they ask you to look at it" part.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#948

Post by ndiddy »

voakbasda wrote: post #699
piltdownman wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever"

I will ask this here again: At what point did the German people find it morally acceptable to start killing Nazis? At what point will the US stop accepting the boot and act to remove the tyranny stamping on our collective face?

> At what point did the German people find it morally acceptable to start killing Nazis?

Functionally never, after the war the Allies handed "denazification" over to the West Germans to handle themselves in 1946. They then let basically everybody off and lots of former Nazis were let back into power. By 1957, 77% of the West German justice ministry was comprised of former Nazis, which was actually a higher percentage than the amount of Nazis in the ministry during Hitler's reign. The Soviets were more strict with the denazification of East Germany, but many former Nazis were still able to retain high positions in government and society.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#949

Post by ryanbrunner »

imglorp wrote: post #622
lentil_soup wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you may have to think both about protecting your data by technical means, and about not angering the agents more than you plan to That's the same problem with technical solutions to crime. I come from a very dangerous city and I used to have a car that needed a PIN to work. You could turn then engine on and drive but after a minute if you didn't input the PIN it would turn off without warning and start blasting the…

In phone terms, that's the $5 wrench problem. The elaborate tech is not relevant if you can be simply coerced somehow to bypass it. Again in phone terms, maybe bring a blank phone through that border.

A blank phone is suspicious in and of itself and probably invites more questioning and suspicion.

And from personal experience, once a border guard is suspicious of you and you're a non-citizen, you're fighting a losing battle to get into that country, regardless of whether you're doing anything shady / illegal.

The most straightforward answer I think is to use common apps for more commonplace social media activities and separate apps that can be removed from your phone when you're crossing a border for things you want to keep private. It's not perfect privacy, but I think a border is one thing that for better or worse you'll need to accept some compromises on.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#950

Post by ryanbrunner »

fn-mote wrote: post #833
mattlondon wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in these situations your absolute best bet is fawning compliance. Ask precisely how high they want you to jump. Perhaps your friendly smiling Yes-Sir-No-Sir-3-bags-Full-Sir act might just be enough to let you get on your way without anything else happening apart from a stamp in your passport. Even the slightest hint of defiance or surliness from you to a border guard/policeman/etc - potentially at the end of…

This comment irritates me. On one hand, I agree with it. On the other: how is it not just a version of “if you have nothing to hide”? At some point, you should fight for what you consider basic human rights. Where you draw the line and how you fight is up to you. It sounds like your attitude is to comply with whatever the authorities want. It seems like a completely innocent person is the best one to push back on aut…

The difference between "if you have nothing to hide" and the argument you're replying to is that "if you have nothing to hide" is used as a justification for why it's not a problem for authorities to be able to randomly search you, while the parent comment isn't attempting to justify, just acknowledge the reality of the situation.
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