Live data from Hacker News

VPN use surges in UK as new online safety rules kick in

ft.com

941–950 of 1001 posts

Re: VPN use surges in UK as new online safety rules kick in

#941

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand this could be abused, but it's up to us to make sure it isn't Exactly, by protesting and fighting laws like this. What exactly do you want people to "make sure of" with the law in place? If someone is concerned about this law, what specific action should they be taking in the name of "diligence"?

Having a law saying children shouldn't view pornography isn't abuse. It's common sense. Just like saying a 12 year old can't legally buy weed. Is that a slippery slope? Should 12 year olds be able to buy weed? If not, why is that not a slippery slope and this is? What needs to be kept in check is the scope. Let's say they try to age restrict sites that are subversive, but not obscene. That's what I'm talking about.

Having a law saying children shouldn't view pornography isn't abuse.

"Children shouldn't view pornography" is fine as an overall goal. A law that suggest the content providers track the faces and passport details of all users is a ridiculous way to fail to prevent that however.

It is however a great way to have an readily accessible log of exactly which citizens are viewing content the government finds questionable.

Re: VPN use surges in UK as new online safety rules kick in

#942
post #919

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know, I think not giving 10 year olds unlimited access to porn is a deep enough reason. It is a legitimate societal harm.

Ok, so don't give your kids access to porn. You can figure out a way to do that without requiring age verification for adults on all sorts of sites. More pearl-clutching "think of the children" nonsense.

That’s plain idiotic. Have you ever met a kid? Good luck with that.

And even if it were somehow feasible to control internet access points 100% of the time, do you think most parents could figure it out? I have friends with teenage children, I assure you, most of them would be easily outsmarted by their kids with anything tech related, and they’re above average intelligence.

I’m not necessarily saying this is the correct solution anyway, I don’t know what is, I’m just saying we don’t need to make up dystopian conspiracy theories to explain the motivation of the people who want to do it.

Re: VPN use surges in UK as new online safety rules kick in

#943
post #919

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so don't give your kids access to porn. You can figure out a way to do that without requiring age verification for adults on all sorts of sites. More pearl-clutching "think of the children" nonsense.

If your kid has a friend how are you going to stop your kid from getting access to porn at their friend's house?

Or, like, anywhere. I saw a kid looking at porn at the library once.

Re: VPN use surges in UK as new online safety rules kick in

#944

This is one of the times where law is outrunning technology. Apple and Google are both working on anonymous attestation but they're pulling the trigger before it's ready. But that's not what laws like these are about. In the US at least these laws are driven by Christian Nationalists are setting up a situation where PII of porn users is able to be leaked. That's what they're counting on. They also want to have politi…

I know lots of companies working on anonymous attestation, and have been myself interested in this for decades. I don't get why we would need any form of age verification for porn at all though, since the cost outweighs whatever little benefit exists given that it's so easy to work around. Online age verification is like the NFTs of internet law.

Re: VPN use surges in UK as new online safety rules kick in

#945
post #780

I was thinking last night how many in some ways these age verification laws might actually have some upside for those of us who were fond of the early internet... Ultimately what these laws will end up doing is pushing internet traffic towards the "normie web", create a separation between sites which refuse to implement these measures and those who will. Ultimately for this filters to work authoritarian countries lik…

> the UK will need to ban sites like 4chan which do not comply with their age verification demands They will not hesitate to do so, the UK has the power to quickly and easily blacklist sites.

Oh for sure. I personally think this was the whole point of the bill.

We've seen from online bans in recent years that it doesn't really matter if someone is still technically able to access a the banned content, at some point if you make the content hard enough to find its influence becomes increasingly irrelevant.

This new legislation basically gives the UK government an excuse to ban large sections of the internet from UK ISPs since they can say they weren't complying with UK law and shift the blame/responsibility in the eyes of the public – "it's not censorship, they're breaking the law!"

In doing this it will likely be enough to reduce UK traffic to those sites by 90%+. While it might technically be possible to buy and install a VPN to access them realistically most people won't bother.

Re: VPN use surges in UK as new online safety rules kick in

#946

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, I'm for teenagers (not little children) having access to pornography. I'm against: pornography, as found in search results, is generally quite bad. Sexism, racial stereotyping, misrepresentations of queer issues: and that's just the titles . Page 3 has nothing on porn sites. Maybe I'm judging a book by its SEO spammers here, but I've not read anything that'd disabuse me of this notion: indeed, people raise co…

Your post reads like a parody of itself. If you're being genuine, I encourage you to step out of your attachment to your own views and meditate on what you said here, and what it looks like to an outside observer who does not share your views.

There's never really a time I'm not attempting that, but sure.

I don't think children should have access to porn, because they should have access to decent sex education, and (most?) porn is extremely misrepresentative of reality. According to https://xkcd.com/598/, exposure to porn can affect people's sexual fetishes. I think it is bad for people to develop an interest in violent, dangerous, or asymmetrically-pleasurable sexual activities before they have have had a chance to… uh, however it is people would otherwise figure out what they're into.

It is better for people to learn about BDSM from actual practitioners (including the background context, such as… uh, safe words? and whatever a "scene" is) than from fictional characters. If the average person (or, heck, the average 16-year-old) attempts to act out a rape fantasy, without proper access to information about SSC / RACK / etc, how's that going to go?

This isn't really the sort of thing you can teach in schools. For one, children mature at different rates: some 15-year-olds are too young to even be thinking about that sort of thing, while others are having sex in secret while their parents pretend to be oblivious. (And some of us never start being interested in that sort of thing.) Teaching anything more than the basics (how reproductive biology works, contraceptives, STIs, respecting consent, enforcing consent, the risk profiles of various popular sex acts, "if you skip foreplay, you might need additional lubricant to avoid injury", "don't use condom solvent as a lubricant", "seriously, don't rape people") in compulsory education fails to respect children's autonomy and is wrong. (Schools don't teach those basics properly, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.)

I also do not trust schools to provide decent sex education, because there are even "good schools" that cover up peer-on-peer rape, and place the onus of "getting along" afterwards on the victim. How's an institution that does that supposed to teach a holistic notion of consent? (No environment with such a high child-to-adult ratio where the children aren't allowed to leave is ever going to be safe, but the reputational incentives lead to particularly bad outcomes when these things happen; we don't have strong enough cultural norms requiring that adults act responsibly when what "shouldn't happen" happens.)

For similar reasons, I think any policy based on the assumption that children are innocent little angels we must avoid corrupting, is dead on arrival and bound to fail. Children are young people, with all the autonomy that entails.

There's no particular difference, apart from power dynamics, between exposing a 17-year-old to sexual material they don't want to see, and exposing a 30-year-old to sexual material they don't want to see. Of course, we cannot generally ignore power dynamics, which is why age-based rules are useful; but age is a proxy for things like autonomy, capacity for choice, informedness of choice, and tendency for choice to be respected by others. A 17-year-old at risk of exploitation does not magically become less vulnerable on their 18th birthday. If the rules to protect teenagers from harm don't protect all teenagers, there's probably something fundamentally wrong with them. (Yes, yes, you can move the threshold to 20. Very clever. Way to miss the point.) Furthermore, if the rules don't protect all teenagers, they probably don't even protect all teenagers below the age of 18, because they're not addressing the problem close enough to its source / to the harm.

As should be apparent from my earlier post, I have very little personal experience with pornography. But I have spent a while thinking about this topic, and I'm not sure how this position is parodic. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

Maybe the social ills caused by porn will disappear with proper sex education; in that case, I might be inclined to support the prospect of children who choose to seek it out having the authority to access pornography. But my current understanding of the world suggests that a restriction is more beneficial than access. (It's only, what, four years to wait? During which time children can learn to deal with randiness in ways other than "fire up ye olde web browser" or "shag a friend".)

Computer-mediated ID verification, and the Online Safety Act in general, is obviously bad, and should be opposed. But, being obvious, that goes without saying. (Was that your objection: that I didn't clearly pick a side?)

Re: VPN use surges in UK as new online safety rules kick in

#947

It sounds like it is time to create a new internet and not invite these people. I wonder how difficult it would be to create an entirely new internet infrastructure that doesn't rely on anything that currently exists and doesn't or can't connect to the existing network.

It already exists; Yggdrasil. It's a fully decentralized IPv6 mesh network. Most users do primarily use the internet for transport now, but it can work just as well over link-local (e.g. ethernet, P2P wireless). It's fast, end-to-end encrypted, and relatively simple to set up.

Re: VPN use surges in UK as new online safety rules kick in

#948

I wonder what the (supposed) anti-censorship people that supported things like eSNI and DoH think about this. They took away our ability to filter our own networks, so now we can't even argue that filtering and monitoring is something that should be done on the client side (per network). Sometimes I feel like both sides are actually just one side playing the long game. IMO the goal is to get verified digital IDs in u…

The solution is to have filtering on the actual client devices. There need to be specialized minor-friendly devices with parental controls at the OS level, and apps need a standardized framework to integrate with those parental controls. Then create regulation that devices used by minors must have such a system, with the standard that every new action (app install, first time visiting a website, new contact, joining a group chat, etc) first needs to be whitelisted by a parent, and that parents can see a timeline of all actions.

With this solution, kids are far safer than under recent UK/EU age verification laws, while adults and their free, open & private internet remain unaffected.

Re: VPN use surges in UK as new online safety rules kick in

#949

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strictly speaking the law was passed under the conservatives, albeit in collaboration with Labour (it's bi-partisan). But I would agree that the drive is more authoritarian and it just uses moralistic arguments to shame people into siding with it. The law could mandate that retail device OSs ship with a turnkey child safe mode complete with app and extensive site whitelists and run an educational campaign on the subj…

It has broad public support. The law was passed in 2023 by the tories, and Ofcom has concluded what the tories asked them to do -- write the statutory instruments that implement the law. The Labour government would have to repeal the law (really unlikely; governments don't usually rip down their predecessors' laws because if they did no progress would occur) or set the statutory instruments aside. I think the "true m…

It has broad public support.

Preventing children from accessing porn has broad public support (as we might hope). That is very different to saying the OSA has broad public support though.

The YouGov survey results that have been much discussed in the past week came from three questions - one about age restrictions for porn, one about whether the new measures would be effective, and one about whether the person had heard of the new measures before the survey. The answers were essentially that the majority hadn't heard of the measures, almost everyone supported preventing kids from accessing porn, but the majority didn't think these measures would be effective in achieving that. Probably none of those results is very surprising for HN readers.

What is notably missing from the debate so far is any evidence about whether the public support the (probably) unintended consequences of the actual implementation of the OSA - which are what almost all of the criticism I am seeing is about. As with any political survey the answers probably depend very much on how you ask the questions and it's easy to get people to say they support "good" measures if you gloss over all the "bad" parts that necessarily go along with them.

Re: VPN use surges in UK as new online safety rules kick in

#950

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in a perfect world the downsides are limited. But in the world we live in I predict a lot more leaks similar to the Tea app hack (which contained a lot of passports, linked to some quite private data from chats like medical documents) The biggest hope I see is that the EU also wants to implement age restrictions, but with a lot more effort to get it right and make it compatible with a strong desire for privacy.…

Leaks of what? The tea app are morons — they literally stored the data! Why did they do it? Why not to delete immediately after verification? Anyway, there are two questions here: 1. Do we need to verify the age of internet users? 2. How can we do it without sacrificing privacy of everyone involved?

> Why did they do it?

You can't monetise the data you don't store

Post reply on HN