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Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

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Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#941

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh have you worked in policy in faang? I have that would be the least insane tactic I saw used. I can’t believe you’re trying to claim the high ground in rationalism here and have no clue how bad it is.

No, but clearly you also have zero idea. People in policy are not dealing with bribery and corruption (which is the framing of the comment I replied to). If bribery is occurring, then I would expect it to be used to get higher value personally directed outcomes (not a few percent on the bottom line). The suggested incentives sound completely wrong to me (which is the point of my comment). Obviously my own ignorant op…

Several heads of policy directly attend trumps fundraisers currently. Are You kidding me it’s not even covered up anymore.

What I’m saying is you in your not doing this mentality think this is fine all cloak and dagger.

It isn’t. It’s legal and it’s done very directly.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#942
post #866

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in that case, once the fermentation system is built, the brewery no longer needs that employee. A better analogy is a brewery hires someone who builds a fermentation system, then continues to operate, maintain, repair, and improve the system over time. Some of the employee's time is spent on work that could probably considered R&D, some of it is on work that is clearly operation, and some isn't clearly one or the…

Repair and maintenance costs can be either operational expenses or capital expenses: https://www.nashadvisory.com.au/resource-centre/repairs-and-... For example, if you pay for someone to maintain the brewery plant to keep it working in its current condition, that’s an operational expense that could immediately be deducted. But if the work is on upgrades and improvements, that’s ordinarily would be a capital expense…

Both cases are tax-deductible, what matters is not whether it's operational or capital, because for example building up inventory would make an operational expense a capital expense, but whether you then sell or rent/lease/use yourself/... what's maintained or repaired (then it's COGS) or you use it yourself (then it needs to be amortized)

The tax code has been optimized by the rich over the past century to extract profits out of industrial firms and that's where the difference comes from. $100 used to, say, produce a car or a cake that you then sell is immediately and fully deductible from tax because otherwise industrial companies just outright can't survive. Hell, you get to claim back/not pay any VAT and/or sales tax you paid for anything related to them. One way to see it is that these rules are designed to get money to the (existing, "old-money") rich, so when investors don't get money, the government doesn't get money.

If it's equipment for the company to use itself, then it has to be amortized, or more to the point, it means industrial companies can't do what Amazon did: use 100% of their free tax flow to grow "tax-free*" instead having to give that money to the government and investors (15-35% to government 65-85% to the rich, sorry, investors), so they can use it for their own ends.

I'm not judging one to be good or bad, just attempting to frame this correctly. I should perhaps point out, as a last point, that this is a massive difference between the US and European countries. In Europe, investors and governments try to have their cake and eat it too: there's tax due (amortization rules, or worse) on new company creation, on company growth, except of course, for the companies of the rich: you can grow financial capital in companies without paying a cent, money, shares, obligations, ..., just nothing else. That's yet another connection to the rich, to investors. New employees, new buildings, ... are double taxed, only money isn't. In Europe, there have only ever been exceptional cases where it was otherwise. In the US "tax-free" new company creation has been the norm for all of history except since Trump changed this rule.

* between quotes because they still have to pay income tax on any wages, sales tax on any purchases, ... it is very far from tax-free, but such companies wouldn't pay a dime to investors. If they did that would make it very hard to create new companies (which is what this regulation does). Amazon's great accomplishment is not AWS or anything like that but 2 financial accomplishments: first, avoid sales tax, second, avoid paying anything to investors. Whatever business Amazon is in is nothing but a tool for that financial engineering.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#943

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The em dash was in popular use long before chatgpt. It's a useful grammatical symbol and a short dash is not a good substitute. Consider whether you'd use it if it was a dedicated key on your keyboard, if so then it's worth the small inconvenience to learn how to type it.

Not just the em dash, the whole post stinks of ChatGPT, and there are two other obvious tells in the sentence I quoted. If you know you know.

Fair enough. I'm sensitive about the em dash being used as a tell, which I've seen mentioned once or twice, because I don't want people to dumb down punctuation to avoid being confused for an LLM. I'd guess it's a temporary issue until the LLMs get so good at blending in that we can't tell anymore.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#945

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike a building—where you might find one for sale and simply buy it—most companies don’t "buy one software" from a vendor and amortize it like a purchased asset. Instead, they hire full-time teams to build, maintain, and evolve software as a core, continuous function of the business. And most companies don’t "sell one software" either—they lease it to others, as software-as-a-service. In your analogy, when a compan…

But the idea behind capitalizing research and development is to eliminate the difference in financial presentation between buying and building software. In both cases, one pays cash to acquire the software then uses it over a period of time to generate revenue. Purchased software is clearly capitalizable. It is then amortized over the expected useful life of the software. Annual maintenance fees are not capitalizable…

Thanks for the perspective—makes sense from a financial reporting lens. Curious how you'd balance that with the reality that modern software is rarely a finished asset, and startups often don’t have revenue yet when these costs hit.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#946

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start ups are hard, most fail. But what rational national policy makes is several orders of magnitude harder to succeed during the riskiest period by adding tax provisions on pretend profits?

Seems like the incentive is to make as little profits as possible at the start to avoid being killed by taxes. I would have expected an exclusion for companies that make below X dollars or are less then Y years old.

Any incoming revenue, whether from sales or investment is theoretically taxable as income unless the company can show that it was used for an exemption such as an op-expense. This rule classifies dev salaries as cap-ex which have a different exemption process. “Profits” are just revenue minus expenses, the question is what is an expense. This rule classifies some expenses in a modified way that lowers the annual amount of the company’s expenses raising their tax liability.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#947

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, it's not wanting to be favored, it's wanting to be treated the same as any other company with expenses.

the accounting rules that require capitalizing R&D are the same for all companies, and the amortization is expensed.

yeah read the whole thread. im arguing that R&D (im not talking about software R&D) should not be special cased as an expense class and a company should be allowed to choose to depreciate or not (just declare which).

ianal but my understanding is:

Under Section 179 of the IRS code, businesses can elect to expense the cost of a fixed asset in the year of purchase, subject to certain limits and restrictions

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#948
As an international founder, I'd like the section 174 to be fully restored as it was before – not just for domestic R&D but offshore one as well, so we're not hit with 15 years deprecitation (it is as good as "infinity")

I also own section174.com and sec174.com

Would these help with visibility?

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#949

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do not think that is correct. The original accelerated depreciation is simply not being renewed.

IANAL, but the language of the bill seems to suggest GP was indeed correct: https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7024... It seems they're going back to the system where one could choose to amortize those capital expenses, but not be required to.

seemingly only for domestic R&D

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#950
post #6

Maybe we should focus on fixing H1B first?

maybe we can do more than one thing at a time

There are approximately 390,000 H1B tech workers in the US. H1B is meant for roles where American workers are not available to fill the job (which is obviously being abused). The tax deduction issue that this post is about is specifically about exacerbating the loss of jobs. Fixing H1B would solve this job issue many times over.
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