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Virginia passes law to enforce maximum vehicle speeds for repeat speeders

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Re: Virginia passes law to enforce maximum vehicle speeds for repeat speeders

#941

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why 70? The maximum posted speed limit in the US is 85.

"The highest speed limit in the country is 85 mph (137 km/h), which is posted on a single stretch of tollway in exurban areas outside Austin, Texas." I think we'll live without that one. But yes, 75 would be more correct.

Why is 75 more correct? There are plenty of major highways with 80mph limits.

Furthermore, speed limits are changed regularly. There are still cars on the road that were sold when we had lower national speed limits.

Re: Virginia passes law to enforce maximum vehicle speeds for repeat speeders

#942

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is exactly my problem with this type of reasoning. You can make these arguments for anything. If we can't even get the most obvious low-hanging fruit because "aww it's slightly inconvenient" then we can't even DREAM of solving complex problems. This new "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" mentality towards policy is so toxic. That's the only guaranteed way to not solve a problem! It's an anti-s…

Sometimes not solving a problem could actually be better. We have to try new things, I do agree, all the time. But every time you change something, you also create ways for new problems.

I agree with this, too. But institutions and systems need constant maintenance and tweaking. Like code, they rot in the face of an ever-changing society.

Re: Virginia passes law to enforce maximum vehicle speeds for repeat speeders

#943

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Texas checking in here - yes, it's Texas, and no, it's not hyperbole. Don't know what rinky dink town you're from, but here most roads are 6-8 lanes across. Yes, that includes in our small cities. They're essentially highways but with signal lights. Go to Arlington, Grand Prairie, Richardson, Fort Worth, Roanoke, Southlake, you name it, and it's just roads after roads like this. Trying to cross them is extremely dang…

I'm from rural Texas and it is indeed rinky dink town, not to far from the places you mention. But I moved to New England years ago and don't miss Texas at all. Keller, Southlake, even, sadly, Denton were overdeveloped hell holes then, but I never lived anywhere where kids were playing right beside an eight lane road. At worse maybe they had to cross a 4 lane road with a median if they were going somewhere outside th…

They're over-developed and simultaneously run down. If you've ever driven down southlake boulevard you know it gets PACKED during rush hour.

> I never lived anywhere where kids were playing right beside an eight lane road

You leave my neighborhood and immediately it's a 50 MPH 6 lane stroad. Granted, I'm counting 3 one way, 3 the other, occasional turning lanes makes it 7 or 8.

It's true your neighborhood is fine. But there's literally nothing in your neighborhood but homes. If you need anything, no matter how trivial, you have to cross stroads. This is very much in contrast to urban mixed-use pedestrian friendly areas.

Re: Virginia passes law to enforce maximum vehicle speeds for repeat speeders

#944

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The highest speed limit in the country is 85 mph (137 km/h), which is posted on a single stretch of tollway in exurban areas outside Austin, Texas." I think we'll live without that one. But yes, 75 would be more correct.

Why is 75 more correct? There are plenty of major highways with 80mph limits. Furthermore, speed limits are changed regularly. There are still cars on the road that were sold when we had lower national speed limits.

Because any amount of inaccurate measurement would mean they were technically going over the limit. You'd have to put a little pad in it.

I didn't propose anything related to existing cars.

Re: Virginia passes law to enforce maximum vehicle speeds for repeat speeders

#945

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this sort of just the Dunning-Kruger effect?

No, Dunning Kruger is that skilled people are better at judging where they are on the skill spectrum.

I think that's the opposite of Dunning-Kruger — impostor syndrome, or maybe "curse of knowledge".

When skilled people either underestimate how hard it is to do something, or gauge a complex task that they have expertise in as easier than it actually is.

Re: Virginia passes law to enforce maximum vehicle speeds for repeat speeders

#946

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is 75 more correct? There are plenty of major highways with 80mph limits. Furthermore, speed limits are changed regularly. There are still cars on the road that were sold when we had lower national speed limits.

Because any amount of inaccurate measurement would mean they were technically going over the limit. You'd have to put a little pad in it. I didn't propose anything related to existing cars.

> Because any amount of inaccurate measurement would mean they were technically going over the limit. You'd have to put a little pad in it.

I don't think it is reasonable nor do people want to buy cars that won't even go the speed limit.

> I didn't propose anything related to existing cars.

I am saying that your proposal(s) will be obsolete after the car is sold. Because speed limits change and cars move to different places over time.

If it could be waived at time of sale, this would just be a part of pre-deliver paperwork that dealers have everyone sign. Dealers don't wan't headaches of people coming back ticked off that their car won't do the speed limit. You're not mandating safety, you're mandating a new piece of paperwork.

Re: Virginia passes law to enforce maximum vehicle speeds for repeat speeders

#947
post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some kind of exoskeletons to control people just walking around in public, too. Stop them doing bad things. Wait, no, that's an excessively extreme level of control, while seatbelt laws are an acceptable level of control because, actually I don't know why, but anyway speed limiters are somewhere between these two levels of control, and therefore acceptable. Or not. One of those.

This is complete nonsense. You could say this for literally any law. Yes, we have laws that exist to control people's behavior. We have systems which exist to control people's behavior. This is intended and completely necessary to live in a society with other people. For an example that causes no controversy to anyone on this board - we have laws that control people's ability to take open-source code and use it witho…

Your idea is that there is a reasonable "level of infringement" of rights which is higher in public places. So, I gave you a range options that might be too high, or not high enough, in order to get you to do the work of establishing why. The component of why was missing from the assertion.

It's true that I didn't want to do this work myself, but then, I don't know how. It's your idea.

Society is based on coercion. Coercion is awful. Society is awful. We prefer it to the alternative. So we continually argue and wrangle and split hairs about how best to arrange the appalling system of controlling people. Shrug

Re: Virginia passes law to enforce maximum vehicle speeds for repeat speeders

#948
post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany (and many parts of the EU) have: - _way_ higher requirements for "safe normal care usage skill" then the US - way higher care safety requirements (as in what cars are allowed to be on the street) - a different driving rules especially wrt. how they affect traffic on highways which do allow faster driving at the cost of putting higher requirements on people understanding and keeping with the rules - also laws…

You make a number of assertions, but you omit any concrete examples. > And it's also quite unclear what you mean with "low speeding limit" and "big difference in vehicle speeds", especially given that lower speeding limits in general limit how big the difference in vehicle speed can be (assuming it's reasonably enforced and as such people somewhat kinda keep to the rules, but if not it's an enforcement problem, not a…

> They instead drive at a natural speed for the road and conditions.

except they don't, they reliably frequently drive above what is save

heck what is safe isn't even always obvious

Especially if you look at urban settings where you have pedestrians, bicycles and motorcycles this is quite common.

Similar people, including some otherwise experienced drivers, tend to fail to internalize that the emergency stopping distances increases exponentially (roughly squared).

A grate example for why you should never base care speeds on percentiles is a street close by to where I live, it looks like it's safe to drive ~50km/h but even when driving just 30km/h you will find it hardly possible to safely keep with other traffic laws, like e.g. precedence on crossroads. It also has funny parts like subtle getting smaller in some areas (including after turns). And playground, primary school and a retirement home are close by. And in difference to some other countries it not uncommon for children here to travel alone (or in groups of children) to primary school and sometimes playground. Potentially as young as 6 years of age.

And that doesn't even include special situations like idk. roads which are especially unsafe during rain due the kind of dust they get exposed too and similar.

> drive according to posted speed limits

sure, but if you have appropriate enforcement most will at most drive slightly above them limits as they don't want to pay high fines or lose their license. If you raise the limits they will again drive slightly above the limits and due to the roughly squared increase in breaking distance this is more then just slightly bad.

> his is why in countries with sane traffic laws, the speed limits are set to the 85th percentile

except it's kinda the opposite

most (not all) countries with very high levels of road safety do not use a percentile system. Most common is a system with fixed speeds for urban, "country side", and "highway" and then assess safety for given speed based on expected reaction time and maximal road safe emergency breaking distance and if it's not safe reduce it (als in general not gradual reduction but based on a preset of "speeds", e.g. in Germany urban walking speed, 30 or 50 for urban streets. The fixed choice of speeds seems a bit strange, but people are animal of habit so it's a better choice, it also makes it easier for everyone (for drivers to not get confused about the speed limit and for state to manage it).

> Get the cars off the road faster and the distance between vehicles will naturally increase.

But if you drive a lot you might have realize that it doesn't increase as much as it must to be as safe. People vastly miss-estimate distance traveled during reaction time and emergency breaking distance all the time. E.g "traffic jam out of nowhere" are not uncommon on German highways and are most times a consequence of people not keeping the required safe distance between cars leading to a chain reaction of people breaking much more then they should need to leading to a traffic jam (as in most commonly a long blob of cars going much slower then they normally would, like just 80km/h instead of 130km/h).

> Germany’s autobahn has no speed limits and while collisions happen, they are relatively rare.

This is not quite right 40% of German highway road has speed limits, because it not being safe to drive faster in that areas.

In addition the recommended maximal safe driving speed is 130km/h, if you drive faster it can lead to reduced insurance coverage and in case of a crash the amount of fault attributed to you might increase, too (depending on you actual speed above 130km/h).

Then there is the thing that the highways are (in the areas without speed limits) designed to allow very fast driving. For one there is the rule that you need to keep on the right most lane as long as you aren't overtaking someone/it's viable. The rule that you aren't allowed to take over on the right side (except in traffic jams). The fact that all highways entrances and exits are strictly only on the right side. And some other smaller stuff which are essential parts of why no speed limit kann be safe. So you really can't easily compare it to other highways.

Lastly in Germany safe driving trump any "rights" speed limits give you and similar. E.g. lets say there is no speed limit but it's relatively crowded and you still insist on driving 200km/h. You might then still get pulled over for non safe driving. Through to be fair ignoring idiots this normally works itself out just fine without such rule on highway. Through the general idea of "looking out for others on the road" being a indoctrinated during driving lessens still does matter.

> maxim is that if you make something idiot proof

Which brings us back why you would want speed limits based on what is actually safe not what feels safe/what people feel like driving. Or why you would only want to have a few categories of speed limits. Or why there are studies which show that building road to wide and safe looking isn't the best idea.

Re: Virginia passes law to enforce maximum vehicle speeds for repeat speeders

#949
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to be glued to the right lane though, or be willing to speed while passing even slower traffic, or you will definitely mess up the flow.

What really messes up flow is traffic "waves"[1] and these are often caused by drivers hitting the brakes because they're following too closely or someone cuts in front of them aggressively. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_wave

Yep - follow distance makes a huge difference in both safety and traffic flow. If you can leave 20 cars in front of you, do it. You get there just as fast but have more time to react and don't need to hit your brakes as often.

Re: Virginia passes law to enforce maximum vehicle speeds for repeat speeders

#950
post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speed limits in the US have a particular problem. The speed limits are set too close to the speed people are expected to drive. Are there any countries that don't have this "particular problem"?

Germany with their autobahn is the best example. There is no speed limit and it is far safer than US highways.

This counterpoint doesn't prove anything. Sweden is very strict speed limits and is also much safe than US highways.
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