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"Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

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Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#941

Post by kelnos »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #394

SCOTUS bears a tremendous amount of responsibility for Trump's power grab. Its immunity-granting ruling means that it's extremely difficult to stop a President who decides to simply ignore the law. Even if you think Trump is a "good guy" who is "doing the right thing" , he's setting precedents whereby a President who is a "bad guy" could turn dictator, and then what? Literally the only option is impeachment, but the…

I'm not sure that SCOTUS's immunity ruling is all that important here. It mainly served to delay Trump's federal criminal trials until it was too late to get anywhere. In the absence of that ruling, a president could still -- in collusion with their VP -- obtain immunity by:

1. While in office, relying on the DoJ's policy of never indicting a sitting president. (Not to mention the fact that they control the DoJ.)

2. On the last day of their presidency, they resign. The VP is sworn in as president, and pardons the now-former president for whatever they've done. (The former president can of course, before resigning, pardon the VP for anything they might have been involved in as well.)

Easy peasy.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#942

Post by kelnos »

Ancapistani wrote: post #40
Terr_ wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If he wanted to fire anyone who disagreed with him, this EO wouldn’t have been necessary. Nonsense! This is the exact opposite ! This is EO shows Trump trying even harder to fire all the people who refuse to go along with his crimes. He is asserting that when the Judicial branch concludes his firings are illegal, he's going to ignore it , and then fire anyone else who refuses to help him illegally fire people. It's…

> He is asserting that when the Judicial concludes his firings are illegal, he's going to ignore it, and fire anyone else who refuses to help him illegally fire people. Where?

Obviously he's not literally saying that, but I think it's clear that this is where all of it is going to go.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#943

Post by kelnos »

KittenInABox wrote: post #198
grandempire wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is an “independent agency”? Which branch of the government is that a part of? Which electoral representative do they report to?

I dunno, it makes sense that the federal branch that manages interest rates is independent of the president. Didn't we have a whole thing where Trump couldn't force rate increases or decreases back in 2020? Do we really want Trump to declare interest rate changes via tweeting or whatever? What about things like drug approvals? I don't want Trump to ban certain drugs just because they didn't donate to his campaign. I…

The Fed is a bit of an odd duck because it's structured quite a bit differently than most federal agencies.

But sure, Trump could absolutely instruct the FDA to rescind certain drug approvals. There are of course processes that legally need to be followed in order to do that, but he could do it.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#944

Post by xnx »

claar wrote: post #326
buttercraft wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> legislative gridlock and dysfunction Isn't this a direct result of "no compromise" policies on one side of the aisle?

I recently watched a 2 hour congressional committee session, with 5 minute talking points per member. BOTH sides of the aisle used their entire 5 minutes to spout one-sided rhetoric and talking points obviously designed for re-election rather than anything resembling debate or conversation. I have no idea which side "started it", but where we've landed isn't useful.

These sessions are used to record clips that they can show their constituents. They are not for real debate.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#945

Post by kelnos »

avidiax wrote: post #901
n2e wrote: post #821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your argument?

I am pretty sure the US will have elections in 2028. But Trump was almost successful in overturning the 2020 election. Now, with additional concentration of power, that increases the possibility of a successful overturning (in favor of a new conservative candidate), or simply a biased election. Dictatorships often have elections and are supposedly democratic. The question is whether those elections reflect the genuin…

The difference is that in most dictatorships that have "elections", the elections are run by the central government. In the US, the states run the elections. Sure, the US federal government has some levers and influence, but I think our elections are less susceptible to presidential tampering due to their decentralized nature.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#946

Post by potato3732842 »

arunabha wrote: post #503

In general, people are going to interpret this EO with their own lens. Unsurprisingly, reasonable people may disagree on the merits of the EO as a whole. However this part of the EO is pretty concerning > 'The President and the Attorney General, subject to the President’s supervision and control, shall provide authoritative interpretations of law for the executive branch' and later > 'No employee of the executive bra…

>This can potentially enable an end run around congress and the courts in that the President can easily choose to interpret laws in a manner inconsistent with the intent of congress and courts

Good.

I hope they do so. Because if trump and friends do it it'll get struck down and precedent will be established. It will likely be too late to stop them, but it will stop the next guy. And the next guy may very well be some establishment swamp creature that would never have encountered any resistance from the other branches doing the same and worse.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#947

Post by potato3732842 »

wahern wrote: post #793
timoth3y wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with a highly sympathetic Supreme Court it is hard to imagine this EO standing. It goes against the foundation of not only US law, but couple of hundred years of international democratic tradition in which allegiance is not to a person, but to the nation itself. US civil servants and military alike swear an oath to support and defend the Constitution not the president or their commander. Illegal orders are not o…

> It goes against the foundation of not only US law, but couple of hundred years of international democratic tradition in which allegiance is not to a person, but to the nation itself. The United States had a spoils system of government administration until at least the late 1800s. The spoils system was still prevalent in many state and city governments until the mid 1900s. This didn't mean officials were permitted t…

> The spoils system was still prevalent in many state and city governments until the mid 1900s.

Chicago, NYC, the entire state government of New Jersey....

That stuff still goes on today.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#948

Post by kelnos »

conartist6 wrote: post #150
conartist6 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kushner said it best. "Noone goes as low as Trump." So you also get to deal with what politics looks like when it reaches its lowest, nastiest form. Trump's a hero to the right, but on the left there's a pretty reasonable sense that Trump's actions have already amounted to literal treason if you consider him to have an obligation to uphold the oaths he has taken. He attempted to get Zelensky to go on US TV and execut…

To make it crystal f**ing clear: him changing the policy of the US isn't treason. Cozying up to Russia or trying to reduce the size of the government are his prerogative as elected leader in a way that trying to change the result of an election is not. Ohh yeah and I forgot that he tried to get everyone to stop counting the votes while he was ahead! That also goes in the treason most foul bucket.

> trying to reduce the size of the government are his prerogative as elected leader

No, that function is within the purview of the legislature, not the executive branch.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#949

Post by kelnos »

bobsmooth wrote: post #825
thiht wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not hyperbolic. In one month Trump has taken full unchecked power on almost anything. In 4 years, you won’t vote, that’s a given.

Republicans were saying the exact same thing when Obama was elected.

That doesn't actually argue anything, though. One group can be wrong about something, and another group can be right about a similar thing in a different context and different time.

(For the record, I don't agree with GP, and do believe that we'll have free and fair elections in 2028.)

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#950

Post by marcosdumay »

lmm wrote: post #764
marcosdumay wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's complex. Obama may have deported lots of people, but Trump famously used the same institutions to detain and torture minors indefinitely... Which of those is "harder" against immigration? It's the same issue that is happening now. Biden deported a lot more people, but he focused on people entering the US or caught doing something. Trump is deporting a low fewer people, but he randomly taking people from their ho…

> Trump famously used the same institutions to detain and torture minors indefinitely Are you talking about the "cages" that were built under Obama and continued under every president thereafter, including Biden? Or what?

I'm talking about the policy of deporting the parents and keeping children detained waiting for the result of "refugee" requests that were never even filled. And no, Biden stopped that really quickly.

The "cages" are the same whether you keep people there for a couple of days waiting for a flight back into their country or for months for no good reason.

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