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Updates to H-1B

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Re: Updates to H-1B

#941

Post by superfrank »

asoneth wrote: post #857
superfrank wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think that could end up having the opposite effect in lower paying fields. An mid level engineer at Google averages $280k/yr according to levels. A principal mechanical engineer at Boeing averages $170k/yr according to levels. If Google can pay an H1-B engineer 70% of what a non H1-B employee would get ($196k), they can bid up to 80k and still save money. Since Boeing is going for a high level employee who…

The implication that companies use H1-B visas primarily to find candidates willing to work for less (e.g. 70%) of a qualified domestic candidate seems like the underlying loophole we should try to close, not just the "fairness" of allocating which companies and fields deserve to exploit this loophole. But your post raises a good point that money is an imperfect proxy for "value" -- a company with high profit margins…

Appreciate the response. I think you make some good points, on your response my thoughts would be.

1. Fully agree, but I don't think we should use that as justification to implement another unfair system. My thinking is that the current H1-B system isn't perfect, but at least we understand its shortcomings. We shouldn't implement a new system that we know has flaws because we don't know what the effects of those flaws will be. It's a devil you know vs devil you don't know type thing. If the current system was a bidding system and people were advocating for a lottery system, I would likely be advocating for staying with the bidding system.

2. To some extent I do think it does affect salaries, but I think there just aren't enough H1-B visas available to have had a super noticeable effect. Also, the rise in companies using H1-Bs has coincided with a massive rise in tech salaries and we don't have a control group to compare against. If tech salaries are up 300% in the last 10 years, but they would have been up 400% without H1-B it's really hard to prove that and it's hard to gain a ton of sympathy from the general public when tech workers are already paid far above average. No one wants to spend their political capital defending the 28 year or making 300k who is upset about not making 400k, even if they are pointing out a legitimate issue.

3. I have a couple of H1-B employees on my team and they all hate the lottery system, so I'm sure they would say a bidding system. To be honest though, in a bidding system, I don't think my company would pay enough to win a visa for them and if I told them that, that would change their mind. My guess would be that a lottery system is actually better for most people currently in the H1-B process because my personal experience has been that most of the people aren't actually all that specialized.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#942

Post by sfblah »

JackYoustra wrote: post #618
sfblah wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in favor of immigration generally, but I actually agree with the cultural argument here. The toxic culture really shows up in interviewing. Recently I've repeatedly had to deal with interviewees obviously cheating with AI tools. Also, while I agree that folks on H-1 visas are around the same qualification-wise as citizens, I also agree that their primary interest is always their visa, not doing a good job as an e…

Yeah, I think that the solution here is to make the visa easier though? If they don't worry about it then they won't be so focused on it.

My opinion is if you pay more than a certain amount of income tax, the visa should be automatic.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#944

Post by mrep »

m00x wrote: post #736
HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #161

A supposed shortage of qualified US applicants for tech jobs, especially software developers, doesn't jibe with the huge numbers of US developers currently looking for work, including highly experienced older workers suffering from age discrimination. I'd be surprised if more than 5-10% of H-1B positions are ones where the hiring company has even looked for US applicants.

I do coding interviews 2-3x/week for a private, but large company. We do not lack candidates, but we lack qualified candidates. Most people that I interview have no clue how software actually works. Most are leetcode monkeys or just really awful. We mostly hire seniors because of the industry we're in, but we've started hiring interns and juniors due to the lack of decent candidates. We'd love to hire US candidates,…

From your other comment, you pay $400-700k for L4-L6.

Since your company is private what percent of that is liquid (cash or RSUs you can immediately sell for cash). Also, what locations are you hiring in?

Cause, if you are asking me to move to the outrageous housing market that is the bay area only to make half my money in shitty stock options that might not evaluate to anything, than I think I found your problem.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#945

Post by psunavy03 »

pilotneko wrote: post #832
ponector wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many contradictions! You pay well, but not so much. You search for qualified applicants but can hire a student. You require linear algebra but ok with technical writer. Looks like your managers don't know who they need to hire or don't want to really hire.

Don’t forget “we don’t build weapons…well the company does but my team doesn’t.”

After what went down in Ukraine I struggle with the idea that folks can still find military tech inherently problematic.

It's currently the only thing preventing a liberal democracy from being overrun and genocided because a tinpot dictator with nuclear weapons woke up on the wrong side of the bed back in 2022 and said "I want, I take."

Re: Updates to H-1B

#946

Post by thomasjb »

shitlord wrote: post #810
bubblethink wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are talking about is PERM. That's a requirement that the department of labor has established. When you want to hire an immigrant permanently, DOL requires that you take out an ad in a Sunday newspaper. It benefits the lawyers and the government greatly as this is a good source of revenue for both of them. As far as the actual job goes, that job was never open. The person is already working for the company on…

I wonder why US citizens aren't regularly exploiting this. Subscribe to the newspaper, apply to the job, and sue the company when they ignore you.

Yeah, a fun side project would be republishing the advert information somewhere devs could set up alerts

Re: Updates to H-1B

#947

Post by bubblethink »

tiznow wrote: post #867
alienallys wrote: post #861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India has roughly twice the population of Europe and is just as diverse. Treating India as a single, homogeneous entity because it's one country overlooks its vast cultural, linguistic, and demographic diversity—comparable to that of Europe. If diversity justifies country caps, it doesn't apply to India. Clinging to such policies seems outdated. If India were divided into smaller countries like Europe, the same South…

I believe this is part of the problem/perception -- Indian immigration via policies like H-1B and whatever Canada does disproportionately offers people from a handful of Indian states (and the highest castes) the chance to be North American tech workers. Even if you say "well, the Indian tech industry is centered on a few states" it in essence is the same problem or perceived problem. Specific to North America, most…

>They do not exactly like the idea of being "carpetbagged" or being "flooded with people who do not integrate" and those perceptions exist not wholly out of imagination.

They do exist wholly out of imagination in this case. You are professing your opinion and stating it as fact. As far as actual immigration statistics go, Indians are a tiny minority, disproportionately successful on wage, crime, and education metrics, and most importantly, legal.

>offers people from a handful of Indian states (and the highest castes).

I really do not get what caste has to do with anything. Which states ? What is the mechanism that favors people from these states or castes ? The legal immigration pathways to the US/Canada are either education or work, and neither of them has any preference for state, caste, etc.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#948

Post by greentxt »

Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #883
greentxt wrote: post #844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, by "won't reteach" you give it away. Those who are not rusty in linear algebra will tend to be recent grads, younger people who are probably not looking for a boring defense job with no remote somewhere in Alabama. Those jobs appeal to people who may have had enough time to forget how to implement a SVD without googling.

Alternatively the developers who do remember and use linear algebra many years into their career or even more advanced math/numerical methods and are also interested in using it are in higher demand than ever before due to the explosion of ML/AI, and thus can command a much higher salary. The simple answer is always they simply don't pay enough to attract the people with this skillset. If they paid as much as Meta (w…

On the latter point I agree completely, on the former--demand for mid-late career quant types, I want to agree but also think we'll need to wait and see because current AI will lower a lot of bars, and as you acknowledge it's all about money ultimately.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#949

Post by pandaman »

shitlord wrote: post #810
bubblethink wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are talking about is PERM. That's a requirement that the department of labor has established. When you want to hire an immigrant permanently, DOL requires that you take out an ad in a Sunday newspaper. It benefits the lawyers and the government greatly as this is a good source of revenue for both of them. As far as the actual job goes, that job was never open. The person is already working for the company on…

I wonder why US citizens aren't regularly exploiting this. Subscribe to the newspaper, apply to the job, and sue the company when they ignore you.

There are other precautions: the job application has to be mailed to a physical address and can easily get "lost", the requirements for the position are numerous and peculiar (the #1 in the old times used to be fluency in a foreign language, but DOL/USCIS eventually got tired of that one, still, since the requirements are for a particular person, it can be any random mix of skills, all of which are hard requirements), and the interview process itself is not designed to pass anyone as the person, on whose behalf the PERM is being filed, won't be interviewing. One would be spending time much more productively applying to real vacancies. The only winning play here is to go through the process and sue the company to get some pain and suffering judgment, which I have not heard being successfully done (but I don't really follow this closely so I could be just ignorant).

Re: Updates to H-1B

#950

Post by cibyr »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #116
crmd wrote: post #68

It’s never been clear to me why this program exists in the first place, other than to put downward pressure on US STEM wages. What am I missing?

You are mixing up purpose and effect. The purpose is to provide more and cheaper STEM workers. The effect is downward pressure on wages. Phrased differently, the goal is to help industry, not hurt workers. Hurting some workers is an acceptable cost, not the goal. One idea is that having a thriving industrial ecosystem helps those same workers more than the downward pressure.

The purpose of a system is what it does.
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