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Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

cnn.com

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Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#941

Post by blub »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #658
blub wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These long-range missiles are a short-time tactic designed to merely hurt the Russians or prevent them from doing certain actions under threat of pain and not a real strategy. Ukraine hasn’t had any battlefield successes since the Kursk Hail Mary which failed early and is now only maintained with the hope of improving their negotiating position when the time comes. The approval of long-range strikes by the US & co li…

Increasing armament manufacturing capacity is critical for Germany and European self-defense regardless of whether those shells go to Ukraine or just get stockpiled. Does anyone seriously think that Europe is going to avoid future warfare in a world where Russia achieves its military goals in this conflict? It's madness.

If it were critical, it would have already happened. But Germany and the EU know deep inside that this isn’t about ideology and conquest and Ukraine is a pretty unique case.

On the other hand with Germany and the EU acting so tough, Russia might believe them, so some military investment is probably wise.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#942

Post by hackandthink »

loandbehold wrote: post #818
dralley wrote: post #783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia and Russia alone is responsible for "kick-starting" this war. And providing Ukraine with aid so that they don't get steamrolled is not morally wrong. Nor is refusing to do so so that Russia can more quickly get around to torturing and repressing the population a moral right.

Russia is responsible but not alone. This war could have been prevented by not pushing Ukraine into NATO. It's THE reason for the war.

Who Caused the Ukraine War?

https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-wa...

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#943

Post by spookie »

holowoodman wrote: post #832
loandbehold wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is responsible but not alone. This war could have been prevented by not pushing Ukraine into NATO. It's THE reason for the war.

Quite the opposite. Ukraine has been prevented from joining NATO by the west, especially Germany and France, for fear of angering Russia. This course of action has led to war. The proper course of action in hindsight would have been to have Ukraine join NATO asap back then.

Same for Georgia. But here we are.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#944

Post by InDubioProRubio »

benterix wrote: post #569
Maxion wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The case last year with the gas pipeline, the Chinese / Russian owned left Kaliningrad, and then while sailing, dropped its anchor before the pipeline and cable, and then dragged it over them, and then raised it. It was apparently accidental, yet both the Chinese and Russians didn't want the crew interviewed, the Estonian and the Finnish authorities both shrugged and didn't really care, and the Estonian energy prices…

> IMO very very likely sabotage, and brushed under the rug in fear of Russian escalation. But what can they do? Imagine you are the leader of a small European country like the Netherlands, and one day Russia decides to shot down your passenger plane with 300 people on board. You can do absolutely nothing. But once a proxy war started, of course the Netherlands are doing their best to make Putin pay for the lives of t…

What goes around comes around - the irony being that russia itself- has very little regarding hightech structure that could be sabotaged.

No russian starlink sats. No russian fiber lines. No anything. Just backwater countries, slowly bled dry to have that heap of loot called moscow polished.

The heap of pillaged academics with nowhere to go has wandered off towards the west.

All there is, is vandalism and downfall while high on nostalgia. The aggressive train station HasBeenHobo of international politics.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#945

Post by [deleted] »

mrguyorama wrote: post #872
jojobas wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western countries have intelligence services with sabotage departments and in general are not above blowing up things their leaders don't like. If the CIA or US Navy don't have the technical means to blow up the Crimea bridge with plausible deniability they haven't been paying attention.

The problem is we (The US) used to swing our """nation building"""/Imperialism dick all around, coup'ing and invading whoever we want, but after Vietnam and wasting trillions bombing sand for 20 years, a lot of us have softened on the idea of forcing our desires through explosions. Add to that a natural conservative tendency in the US to jump at isolationism whenever there's an easy excuse (the guy you like is doing…

[deleted]

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#946

Post by watwut »

loandbehold wrote: post #818
dralley wrote: post #783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia and Russia alone is responsible for "kick-starting" this war. And providing Ukraine with aid so that they don't get steamrolled is not morally wrong. Nor is refusing to do so so that Russia can more quickly get around to torturing and repressing the population a moral right.

Russia is responsible but not alone. This war could have been prevented by not pushing Ukraine into NATO. It's THE reason for the war.

No, Ukraine in NATO would prevent the war. The war happened, because Russia wants territory.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#947

Post by watwut »

techbrovanguard wrote: post #922
fsloth wrote: post #838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s bullshit. I’m sorry, but I’m tired of apologists falling to Russian state lies. Falling over to Russian lies is not independent thinking. The first rule of kremnology is that Russia always lies without a shame, as lies are usefull and they incur zero cost on the liar. Russia invaded because they felt Ukraine was showing a bad example of slavic people becoming a democracy. Also Russia has always had an affinity…

> The first rule of kremnology is that Russia always lies without a shame, as lies are usefull and they incur zero cost on the liar. you’re describing international relations, none of this is specific to russia. people are indoctrinated from birth into nationalist propaganda. when these mouthpieces speak they aren’t lying, but it’s not the truth.

The amount of lying coming from Russia is the next level tho.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#948

Post by fsloth »

techbrovanguard wrote: post #922
fsloth wrote: post #838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s bullshit. I’m sorry, but I’m tired of apologists falling to Russian state lies. Falling over to Russian lies is not independent thinking. The first rule of kremnology is that Russia always lies without a shame, as lies are usefull and they incur zero cost on the liar. Russia invaded because they felt Ukraine was showing a bad example of slavic people becoming a democracy. Also Russia has always had an affinity…

> The first rule of kremnology is that Russia always lies without a shame, as lies are usefull and they incur zero cost on the liar. you’re describing international relations, none of this is specific to russia. people are indoctrinated from birth into nationalist propaganda. when these mouthpieces speak they aren’t lying, but it’s not the truth.

No, the use of lying in Russian dialogue is quite next level. It’s way beyond what is expected in western international policy.

It’s the ”i know they are lying, they know i know, and yet they lie”. One of the points is not to convince but to confuse.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#949

Post by valval »

aguaviva wrote: post #736
valval wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the number of wars and conflicts that the US, UK, France, Germany, or Italy (de facto NATO) have been part of unnecessarily since 1949 is above 12 (a dozen), but then again dozen isn't a rigorous quantifier, and I was careful not to use a precise number since I knew it was somewhere between 10 and 15 but couldn't be bothered counting for my message.

No, every conflict the US has been involved in is not "de facto NATO".

To you, no. To our adversaries, yes.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#950

Post by valval »

aguaviva wrote: post #823
sabbaticaldev wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is enlighten too see some sober analysis. The cynicism in the western world is in an ATH.

Except it's nothing of the sort. It's just a bunch of random talking points (e.g. "Ukrainian neo-nazis killing people in Donbas") they read or heard somewhere, without making any effort to discern whether there was any validity at all to what had just been served to them.

You're uninformed on the history of Ukraine and Russia. That's fine.
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