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Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

theguardian.com

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Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#941

Post by t0bia_s »

codedokode wrote: post #360
a0123 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Telegram fanatics for some reason are unwilling to hear it but we'll say it again: the reason why we still have an Internet in 2024 is that all those services at least attempt some form of moderation. With more or less success, sure, but they can at least say there is an attempt and they do take down stuff. Durov pretty much brags about not doing the bare minimum. It's that simple.

Telegram allows to report illegal content to moderators. Jail those who saw the content but didn't report it. I am sure all those claims in the media about "cooperating with terrorists" is just a lie. Probably it is something related to not implementing fingerprints for copyrighted material.

Or Telegram is threat for current establishilment because of platform used for organising protests. It could be politically oriented like main purpose of DSA.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#942

Post by NoboruWataya »

garrettgarcia wrote: post #920
NoboruWataya wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why stop there? Because we want to, and we can. I don't get how HN consistently fails to understand the actual social and political process by which regulations are made. I constantly see this argument which effectively boils down to "if you ban a thing, you will also need to ban everything else, which is absurd, so you shouldn't ban anything". But in real life we can choose what we ban. Everything is a trade-off;…

> But in real life we can choose what we ban. Everything is a trade-off; we can choose to ban something if the harm it creates is considered to outweigh its benefit to society. This is the principle behind, and popularize by, Nazism and Soviet-style communism. In short, it is the arbitrary use of force against whichever targets the ruling bureaucrats deem to be "socially harmful". This principle leads inevitably to m…

It is the principle behind all government. In fact it is not much more than a basic description of the concept of a government. Your government bans stuff too, I guarantee it.

No fantasies here, the state does plenty that I disagree with. But the idea that societies can regulate harmful conduct is not really that controversial outside of HN and a few other particularly libertarian bits of the internet.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#943

Post by nephanth »

throwaway48540 wrote: post #492
layer8 wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CEOs can be liable for intentional or grossly negligent non-compliance, among other things.

Owning a company providing a secure communication product is not negligent nor non-compliance.

This is really out of scope for this case though. Most of what is discussed in this case is about public, unencrypted channels

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#944

Post by anigbrowl »

vdqtp3 wrote: post #613
anigbrowl wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech is not something they value. Individual rights aren’t valued. Nonsense. Of course Europeans value those things, but they're also mindful of the fact that such freedoms can be abused, sometimes with catastrophic consequences.

When you support literally jailing people for speech you don't like, you don't support free speech. The clear-cut example I usually pull out - there's PLENTY more. https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/31/23004339/uk-twitter-user-...

I fail to see what this has to do with European conceptions of free speech in general. You may recall that Britain went out of its way to leave the EU, in part citing its dislike of the EU's legal concept of fundamental rights.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#945

Post by nephanth »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #371
qingcharles wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trial will take place soon? That seems very unlikely. I don't think France has a statutory number of days in their speedy trial right, so even if you demand trial as you walk in the door, for a serious trial of this size, with this many charges, my experience is saying one to two years for trial. Now, France does have more rights on pre-trial detention, so he might be able to get some sort of bail, but he's an en…

How often is bail completely denied in France?

"Bail" (as in you give money instead of being detained) isn't common in France (although it foes exist in French law).

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#946

Post by kazinator »

gtvwill wrote: post #55
vessenes wrote: post #19

Not clear right now if France thinks he was actively complicit with the four horsemen listed, or if just the act of running Telegram makes him complicit in their eyes, or something in the middle, e.g. they asked for help and Telegram turned them down. This will be an interesting case to watch -- I don't believe there are any western nations that want non-locally-backdoored messaging of any sort -- but generally my un…

But here's the thing. If your app is known to be uses heavily by criminals ranging from Pedo's to drug dealers. You are liable. You run a carrier service. Much like the owner of omegle found out, yes you do have a duty of care. You can't just provide a service that knowingly provides a platform to criminal activity and do jack shit. You live in fairytale land if you think you can.

Should Safeway run background checks on shoppers so as not to sell a loaf of bread to a pedophile?

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#947

Post by nephanth »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #914
sega_sai wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A channel that incites violence is against the law (in some countries). A channel selling drugs is against the law. These are few examples. I do not how the specific details of the French case to comment on the specifics. I could believe the arrest is poorly justified, but I have reasonably belief in their justice system.

A channel doesn’t do that though. People do that. If I take a megaphone to the street corner and start selling drugs, are you really going to arrest the megaphone I used?

Weird parallel. If you're on the street it's easier to arrest you. Now if your megaphone is used exclusively to sell drugs and for some reason you cannot be arrested, then it makes sense to confiscate it?

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#948

Post by oska »

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote: post #644
vzaliva wrote: post #261

Well, this is the consequence of Telegram's poor privacy choices. Most chats are not end-to-end encrypted, and they could have access to their content. This makes them liable when they refuse governments' requests for such information. It also raises the question of whether they have given such access to other governments like Russia (coincidentally, Durov was in Baku at the same time Putin was visiting, and there is…

>> could not be forced to wiretap Couldn't they just quietly release an update, under a threat of a 20y jail time, or just $5 wrench? Any centralized solution is vulnerable. The only real solution is open source serverless p2p network.

> The only real solution is open source serverless p2p network.

e.g. Keet (although currently 99.9% open sourced; not yet 100%)

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#949

Post by qingcharles »

qingcharles wrote: post #504
MichaelZuo wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often is bail completely denied in France?

I have no specific data, and Europe has slightly better bail rights than most of the USA, but I would think for this list of charges and his flight risk a judge would have qualms or problems denying bail.

I meant to type "no qualms"

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#950

Post by dang »

cft wrote: post #348
dang wrote: post #303

We changed the URL from https://www.tf1info.fr/justice-faits-divers/info-tf1-lci-le-... to an article in English. If there's a better article in English, we can change it again.

[flagged]

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
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