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Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#941
post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s why they moved out of Gaza wholesale, removing settlers, just to have Hamas rise to power and attack?

You seem to have left out the 17 year blockade of Gaza by Israel, the intentional starvation of the population. The occasional bombings and "targeted" airstrikes... sure they just randomly attacked Israel one day because they felt like it...

That's not the order things occurred. When Israel left Gaza it left it to the Palestinian authority and it wasn't blockaded (there was some partial blockade but it was practically open). The present walls and barriers around Gaza were put in place after the disengagement as a response to specific attacks coming out of Gaza.

The previous restrictions on Gaza were also a result of attacks coming out of Gaza on Israeli civilians.

If the population was starving while Hamas, the government of Gaza, managed to smuggle in RPGs, assault rifles, lathes, trucks, rockets, mortars, sniper rifles, heavy machine guns etc. then clearly the issue is a matter of their priorities, not Israel. Hamas stole concrete to make tunnels, used water pipes to make rockets, was the elected government, and is completely responsible if its population is starving (which I don't think was true anyways). You're also somehow conveniently leaving Egypt out of the picture. Why should Israel feed its enemies (and allow them to work in Israel, and give them water and power). Egypt could have done all that. But Hamas didn't only pick a fight with Israel- they also collaborated with ISIS in Sinai and picked a fight with Egypt.

They "randomly attacked Israel one day" because they are consumed by hate and religious fanaticism. Just listen to what they say. If they chose peace, they'd get peace, Israel has no interest in randomly attacking them.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#942

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you link me to such polls?

Sure: https://en-social-sciences.tau.ac.il/sites/socsci-english.ta... . This is a very interesting poll, and it clearly shows that Arabs want peace, while Israeli Jews do not . In reference to the same poll: "A vast majority of Jewish Israelis believe that the IDF is using an appropriate amount or not enough force" [0]. "Nearly 58 percent of respondents in one poll said they think the IDF is using “too little firepow…

I think most Israelis do not believe peace is possible with the Palestinians. This is a result of the suicide bombing campaign that followed the Oslo peace process.

But I don't think your survey shows what you're saying it shows. I've no doubt that more Israeli Jews want peace than Arabs. Find me a survey that asks this question to both population, do you prefer peace or a war. I have no doubt what the answer would be. You can see this in the public discourse, the Palestinian population supports "resistance" which is war. you won't find much Israeli discourse about initiating violence against the Palestinian population pre Oct 7th. See this: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/new-poll-shows-palestinians...

Palestinians could have peace at any time. On Israeli terms. They can have their freedom, their humans rights. What they can't have is the land they demand, the right of return, and the eviction of the state of Israel.

In terms of Gaza, it's not surprising Israelis are disappointed with the progress in the war. It's been 5 months and Gaza hasn't been completely retaken and Hamas has not been defeated as a military. Again I don't think this actually supports your point of view at all or necessarily paints Israelis in a bad light. If Hamas hadn't attacked on Oct 7th we wouldn't be having this discussion. Since they have Israel is using all its might to destroy them and yes there are severe consequences to the Gazans. Israel is somewhat in the middle in terms of the usage of force in this situation vs. what most of the world considers to be normal. The Russians e.g. would undoubtedly apply a lot more force. Even most of the western world would and has.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#943

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically let them attack Israel as much as they want, and Israel is only allowed to defend? That's like having a sibling that's allowed to punch, prod, and poke you as much as they want. If you don't hit back your life will be hell.

Note that what I'm describing is essentially the status quo before 7 October, including the periodic "mowings of the lawn" by Israel to keep Gaza uprisings in check. Alternatively of course, Israel could choose to make peace. And that's an option that is available only to Israel, who is the occupying power, and the overwhelmingly more militarily powerful party, not to the Palestinians who can only keep growing resist…

Serious question: Do you think that Isreal would cease to be attacked by Palestinians tomorrow if they stopped military operations, left Palestine, lifted all blockades, and only operated a no-cross policy for the shared border?

My hypothesis is that without a blockade, external munitions would be shipped in and used to try and obliterate Isreal.

I see no evidence of a stop-and-immediate-peace outcome.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#944
post #942

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure: https://en-social-sciences.tau.ac.il/sites/socsci-english.ta... . This is a very interesting poll, and it clearly shows that Arabs want peace, while Israeli Jews do not . In reference to the same poll: "A vast majority of Jewish Israelis believe that the IDF is using an appropriate amount or not enough force" [0]. "Nearly 58 percent of respondents in one poll said they think the IDF is using “too little firepow…

I think most Israelis do not believe peace is possible with the Palestinians. This is a result of the suicide bombing campaign that followed the Oslo peace process. But I don't think your survey shows what you're saying it shows. I've no doubt that more Israeli Jews want peace than Arabs. Find me a survey that asks this question to both population, do you prefer peace or a war. I have no doubt what the answer would b…

> Israel is somewhat in the middle in terms of the usage of force in this situation vs. what most of the world considers to be normal

If we're being honest, I think that perception (such that it may exist) largely depends upon the race of the subject states. Consider the recent bomb blast on Iran, attributed to Israel - if Iran responded in the same manner as Israel did after Oct 7th, our govs would be denouncing them as evil incarnate!

In any case, I really think - really hope - that's not true; surely most civilians don't think forced starvation, massacres of children, torture etc are "OK". If so, there is no hope for humanity.

And bear in mind this is not "just" about Gaza - many more people now know about Israel's illegal and dehumanising actions towards Palestinians, whipping up Islamophobia, and general land-theft and terrorism throughout the region. And we do not understand how this is allowed to happen in our name, supported by our governments.

> Even most of the western world would and has.

In the past, yes. And in times gone by, civilians were kept informed of global events by newspapers and TV news. Now, we are basically seeing a genocide, land-grab and oil-grab unfold right before our very eyes, from the normal, everyday people who are affected - people who now don't seem so different to us, people just like us.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#945
post #932

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slaughtering a bunch of dancers at a festival seems congruent with terrorism to me. Your argument seems to be: it's okay to do terrorist things if someone makes you. But that's still terrorism.

> Slaughtering a bunch of dancers at a festival seems congruent with terrorism to me. There's evidence many of them were killed by friendly fire, to avoid capture and the need for hostage swaps. See: https://thecradle.co/articles-id/18526 https://www.oct7factcheck.com/oct7factcheck/Friendly-fire-Is... https://w.ynet.co.il/yediot/7-days/time-of-darkness

I recall seeing this shortly after Oct 7; though at that time it was difficult to distinguish whether it was propaganda.

I think the Hannibal Directive is not great, but at the same time the Israelis wouldn't have committed those acts had the terrorists not crossed into Isreal intending to do terrorist things.

It's terrorism whether you invade to kidnapp civilians or to murder them, and they're was plenty of civilian murdering happening that day as well.

Even if Isreal goaded them into doing it to justify genocide, it's still Hamas who decided to do the terrorism.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#946
post #942

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most Israelis do not believe peace is possible with the Palestinians. This is a result of the suicide bombing campaign that followed the Oslo peace process. But I don't think your survey shows what you're saying it shows. I've no doubt that more Israeli Jews want peace than Arabs. Find me a survey that asks this question to both population, do you prefer peace or a war. I have no doubt what the answer would b…

> Israel is somewhat in the middle in terms of the usage of force in this situation vs. what most of the world considers to be normal If we're being honest, I think that perception (such that it may exist) largely depends upon the race of the subject states. Consider the recent bomb blast on Iran, attributed to Israel - if Iran responded in the same manner as Israel did after Oct 7th, our govs would be denouncing the…

What recent bomb blast on Iran? You're not seriously comparing slaughtering and raping party goers (to say the least), abducting woman, babies and elderly, to a clandestine operation against some infrastructure. Iran says it wants to destroy Israel (and why?) and acts towards it. Israel is allowed to counteract that.

If Israel raided Iran, raped Iranian woman, beheaded random Iranian citizens, abducted Iranian children and elderly, Iran would absolutely be justified to start a war with Israel. Many Iranians are strong supporters of Israel in this conflict by the way. In a war you do anything possible, these days within international law, to defeat your enemy and I'd fully expect Iran to try that under those circumstances.

You're insisting Israel is the bad side here. I'm going to respectfully disagree. There is no comparison between the moral positions of Israel and Hamas.

We're seeing war. The use of the word genocide in the context of this war is propaganda and is eroding the meaning of that word.

EDIT: It's also important to consider that Iran is already waging a proxy war on Israel. A war with no justification.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#947

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protected sites lose their protected status under the law of armed conflict if they are used to hide/support combatants. Agree or disagree with Israel's targeting policies; that's still the law and has been for decades.

But the burden of proof rests on the army that attacks said protected site. They need to show that it hid or supported enemy combatants. And to date, no such proof has been provided. Show me proof of the expansive military complex with their large cache of weapons and hidden combatants and I will gladly shut-up.

The Israeli video footage showing of Hamas rocket launch sites inside Gaza schools are faked? Ditto the phone recordings of Hamas ordering ambulances for military transport those are fake as well? Do you believe Hamas follows “laws of war”? When they fire rockets at civilian populations? Are the Hamas rocket attack videos faked? Once the other side starts to bomb your cities and kill your civilians what should they expect will happen to their cities? War is an ugly brutal contest to terrorize or kill the other side to stop resisting. We try to have rules to control war but history shows once those rules start to get violated by one side you should not expect others to stick to them.

All that said I think Israel will be responsible for lots of broken innocent civilian lives and broken infrastructure when this is all done and their best policy in Gaza will be like USA had towards Germany and Japan after WW2.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#948

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to provoke trouble. Just trying to understand what you meant. I do not believe that Israel is actually committing war crimes. I've seen no credible evidence for it. I have seen lots of evidence of war crime by Hamas by contrast. I'm not pro Israel because they are my "favorite team" or "preferred fandom". If Israel or any batik. I am pro Israel because, of the two competing narratives, theirs makes the…

I don't think I'm a good foil for this argument. But that's fine, we don't have to argue!

I'm not arguing. Not attacking. Just asking what you meant.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#949
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting since in my book CNN is very anti-Israeli. Maybe not as anti-Israeli as The Guardian. The "funny" thing is that if some consider you pro-Israeli and some consider you anti-Israeli that doesn't mean you're neutral. It all depends on your viewpoint. I feel that will take a long time to be able to actually look at the current events with perspective when we have more facts and less emotions. Right now we're…

CNN is openly and explicitly pro-israel. Can you provide any examples for your claims otherwise?

It's my personal experience.

Whenever I navigate to CNN's web site it mostly features the plight of Palestinians in manipulative and repetitive ways. Stories showing Israel in a bad light will persist for days on the front page. It shows nothing about the plight of Israelis. When I see CNN reporters like Wolf Blitzer interview Israelis they are openly hostile. Christiane Amanpour interviewed Ehud Barak the other day and her tone was quite hostile. Their referral to Israeli data often uses language like "Israel says" or "Israel alleges" even when reporting on matters that are known to be factual. E.g. their reporter will enter a tunnel that obviously goes under a hospital they just saw outside and will report as if that's still a matter of speculation. Often referral to Hamas data is presented as fact.

CNN leans towards the Democrats in the US (obviously) and we're seeing the Democrats overall take a fairly critical stance towards Israel. So it's not a surprise to me that the left leaning media follows that lead. Though CNN has a history of anti-Israeli bias.

Just Googling now it does seem that it's somewhat of meme in certain circles how CNN is Pro-Israeli. That's understandable. To certain circles using the word "Israel" and not "The Occupation" and the word "terrorism" instead of "resistance", or mentioning evils like the two state solution, interviewing any Israelis etc., is Pro-Israeli. Seriously though, it's ridiculous to consider CNN Pro-Israeli when their focus is mostly on making Israel look bad. It makes perfect sense for the enemies of Israel to attack CNN as being Pro-Israeli because they are trying to use any leverage they can to shift US public opinion because Israel relies on US support. No tactic is beneath them to accomplish their goal of the elimination of Israel. The Palestinians have for decades now pursued these sorts of tactics.

Also check this out (pre-Oct 7th):

https://www.camera.org/article/tracking-cnns-bias-cnns-obses...

I understand that the fact CNN isn't reporting on Israel like Al-Jazeera (Qatar's propaganda arm) does paint them as Pro-Israeli to a certain crowd. It is true they are not Al-Jazeera but they're certainly not Pro-Israeli. Their anti-Israeli bias goes way back.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#950

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The comment you were replying to was dismissive and uncivil" Fascinating. The person you replied to unleashed a barrage of toxic misinformation, including absurd claims about nobody being tortured on Oct7, and that Israel killed the music festival attendees, among other propaganda nuggets. They also frame Oct7 as a strategic positive, based on the "killing" of normalized relations between Israel and Arab countries…

The more right you are, the more important it is not to discredit your arguments with incivility.

Is "more right" even possible? I don't want to be "more right"!

Static charge emerges from the process of disagreement on these and other crisis subjects. Calm diplomacy is main goal but occasionally something unexpectedly ferocious latches to your ankle, and calmly ushering the threat from your ankle becomes the lesser option of a more animated response.

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