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Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

cointelegraph.com

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Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#941
post #766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wealth can't really use to purchase anything with is not real wealth. If you can't convert bitcoin to $/€ it becomes effectively worthless I agree, that is why Bitcoin was supposed to be electronic cash, you were supposed to be able to pay for everything with it. Bitcoin (BTC) doesn't scale today to this purpose, but you can still use it to pay directly for some products and services as long as the other party will…

> pay directly for some products and services as long as the other party will accept it. You can but generally you don't want to. Besides the technical issues it's a very volatile asset which means that you don't want to hold it for any extended period of time (IF you're only using it to pay for stuff).

To the contrary, as long as you can hold through the volatility window of about 4 years, you are better off holding Bitcoin.

The price of a house used to be 100 bitcoin, then 10, now it's 5. Wait 10 years and it'll be 0.5. Meanwhile, hold dollars and the price keeps going up. You are defacto forced to put your saving in an investment vehicle to keep up with inflation, taking on risk.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#942

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a very small number of mining pools that control Bitcoin. All the USA has to do to force a hard fork is order them to run alternative mining software.

I guess they'd enjoy running their expensive hardware on a worthless fork while the rest of the planet used bitcoin.

And of course, like when China banned mining, they would simply pick up shop and move to another country. One with fewer regulatory risks.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#943
post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not argue semantics. With bitcoin you don't need "real money", you can exchange it directly person to person. In any case other countries that embrace bitcoin will always exist. It sounds like you need to learn what money really is. Try and figure out why mankind chose shells and beads as money, then gold and then fiat. It will help you understand why it will choose bitcoin next.

> With bitcoin you don't need "real money", Maybe you don't (almost) everyone else does. > In any case other countries that embrace bitcoin will always exist. Doubtful. None exist and unlikely any will exist in the future (at least not the type of countries many people would want to live int) > It sounds like you need to learn what money really is. Try and figure out why mankind chose shells and beads as money, then…

> None exist and unlikely any will exist in the future (at least not the type of countries many people would want to live int)

El Salvador has already made Bitcoin a legal tender. I assume your no-true-scotsman addition of "any country somebody would want to live in" is meant to disqualify it? That's rather disrespectful to the 6 million people who live there in addition to being wrong.

In my opinion more countries will adopt it in the coming years and convert a small portion of their reserves to Bitcoin. Time will tell which of us is correct.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#944

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have we officially abandoned the original goal of privacy/anonymity with bitcoin? Privacy isn't only a good thing when you have something to hide. But if you have something to hide and the official on ramps and off ramps don't allow you to hide it, you can just use the black market, so the only people using the official system in that context are the people who believe themselves to be uninteresting to the governme…

> making the KYC requirements a pointless burden on innocent people. Oh I'd be all for getting rid of KYC laws and similar, no complaints here. > you buy your medication from the pharmacy and not a drug dealer because you want the quality controls the government imposes Personally if I were buying prescription meds I'd go to a pharmacy simply because I don't went to be caught and charged with illegally buying a contr…

> Oh I'd be all for getting rid of KYC laws and similar, no complaints here.

I'm not entirely sure why we still have them. They're expensive and inconvenient, studies have shown that they're extraordinarily ineffective, as far as I can tell they persist because people have the perception that they're important and then resist getting rid of them.

> Personally if I were buying prescription meds I'd go to a pharmacy simply because I don't went to be caught and charged with illegally buying a controlled substance.

Aspirin isn't a controlled substance. In theory someone who didn't have to comply with regulations could supply it for a lower price. But the drug store's price isn't particularly excessive and risking your life on your distant acquaintance's chemistry skills generally isn't worth saving $0.50.

If the price difference was much higher or the pharmacy wasn't allowed to sell it to you at all then many people would do exactly that, as we've seen.

> The laws are enforceable if they catch you. Catching you will be harder on the black market, but you absolutely can be charged if they do.

You have to consider how catching you generally happens.

Suppose you have a law requiring merchants to offer a 30 day warranty. This is easy to enforce -- the customer goes to have the merchant honor the warranty and if they don't the customer reports them to the government.

Now suppose the law prohibits certain types of transactions, even if neither party is deceiving the other and both are entering into the transaction with informed consent and of their own free will. Well then they're just going to do it and not tell anybody about it, and how is anybody going to find out?

The government can try to enforce laws like that. But their ability to depends on the perpetrator's willingness to do business with strangers who are really undercover law enforcement. In general the higher level operators avoid doing that and the low level pawns are disposable and arresting them doesn't make a dent.

Trying to do that with digital currency is possibly the hardest of any of them because by its nature it's fungible and can be transferred across the internet. If someone set up a foreign site where anyone could exchange cryptocurrency for bullion or some other commodity, what does KYC enforcement look like? The party intended to be doing it would be outside the jurisdiction and the most visible artifact would be a package with some non-contraband fungible commodity going through the mail.

> Fewer potential customers to transact with means demand goes down, in all likelihood the value of bitcoin would be much lower if there were no legal uses for it.

The premise isn't that there are no legal uses, it's that the legal uses would have to do KYC. So the people not breaking any laws would do the KYC and the people breaking laws would not.

Also, the value of Bitcoin only really matters to people holding non-trivial amounts of it or making contracts denominated in it, i.e. speculators. It makes little difference to anyone using nominal amounts as a currency.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#945
post #824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of them offer the probability of bitcoin. It's the most asymmetrical bet I've ever seen. The only reason it's not already $10M/BTC is that noone understands what it is - many people think they do, but they don't. As someone who has studied the subject for 100s of hours, I haven't come across a single valid argument for why it won't absorb all the stored value in the world over time. The hardest part is just bein…

I'll try: For BTC to absorb all stored value in the world, it would need to be the only currency in the world. That is the only way all assets in the world are bought/sold with BTC. But that alone is, IMO, a non-starter. It assumes that all countries in the world would more or less give up control of their own currency and economy - if BTC is the only currency worth anything, why would anyone own or get paid in anyth…

> If crypto poses a legitimate threat to that power and control, it is much easier to remove the threat than to adapt your system to it.

In fact the opposite of this is happening. We are in a discussion about how the SEC was ordered by the courts to further integrate Bitcoin into the existing financial system. Despite their protests and attempts to impose their own will on the rights of the people.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#946

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure as long as you realize its simply an opinion and not act like it's a fact that it's bad. Fundamentally it feels like every time these threads open up on HN 70% of it is bad faith, repeat arguments. Don't like Bitcoin's Proof of work properties, check out Ethereum. Don't think that everything needs to be on one central ledger? Check out Polkadot. It feels like so many commenters here put their heads in the sand a…

An opinion backed by mainstream economic consensus but, yes an opinion. I do not need to utilize heterodox models to justify why a hyper deflationary monetary system is a bad idea. I can base this opinion off economic fundamentals and data points showing the negative impacts such a system would have. But you probably understand this, and have justifications for why the positives outweigh the negatives. I don’t reach…

  why a hyper deflationary monetary system
Bitcoin is inflationary until 2044

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#947

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure as long as you realize its simply an opinion and not act like it's a fact that it's bad. Fundamentally it feels like every time these threads open up on HN 70% of it is bad faith, repeat arguments. Don't like Bitcoin's Proof of work properties, check out Ethereum. Don't think that everything needs to be on one central ledger? Check out Polkadot. It feels like so many commenters here put their heads in the sand a…

I object to Bitcoin on the fact that governments regulate money, so centralization is guaranteed. Wasting any effort on fake decentralization is objectively inferior because it adds to the cost with no benefit.

  Wasting any effort on fake decentralization is objectively inferior because it adds to the cost with no benefit.
Do you feel similarly about democracy?

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#948

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drugs, gambling, crimes all satisfy some people's needs I've seen the exact same people crying about Bitcoin's "drug use" then turn around and applaud marijuana and psychedelics for their medicinal effects. I call bs on the "drug" scapegoat. People are salty they work in tech and don't understand bitcoin.

Is it possible that you can understand bitcoin and still not like it?

Sure, that's not the people I'm referring to.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#949

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I object to Bitcoin on the fact that governments regulate money, so centralization is guaranteed. Wasting any effort on fake decentralization is objectively inferior because it adds to the cost with no benefit.

Wasting any effort on fake decentralization is objectively inferior because it adds to the cost with no benefit. Do you feel similarly about democracy?

Democracy doesn't have the same problems. If a government is not functioning properly, voting them out is better than armed revolting then out.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#950

Finally a workaround for high transaction fees! This should also solve the scalability issues quite a bit by reducing the need to record as many transactions in the first place once the exchanges hold most of the coins. Finally this should reduce the long-term potential in mining as the block reward keeps reducing exponentially with lower expectations of transaction fees. Sometimes regulatory solutions do fix hard te…

Congrats you just made another currency that is explicitly not Bitcoin. And it's better at being a currency than Bitcoin. Which isn't very difficult because Bitcoin absolutely sucks as a currency.
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