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Nobody wants to teach anymore

jessicalexicus.medium.com

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Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#941

Post by rayiner »

erdos4d wrote: post #565
rayiner wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That and parents/social fabric encourages and allows anti-social behavior and viewpoints. This is under-appreciated. I don’t know about other 1990s kids, but a lot of my teachers growing up pushed a “question authority” attitude. Like, painting the Tinker anti-Vietnam War protestors in a positive light, etc. “Follow social norms without questioning them” definitely wasn’t a thing we were taught. Is it really surpri…

Same experience here going to school in the 90s, but I have the exact opposite take. I was taught to question authority and think this was one of the few really important lessons I received from school. I think that's why I was instinctively able to see through all the flag waving conformism after 9-11 and the current MAGA death cult. The lack of critical thinking I see from so many of my peers didn't arise from bein…

The "MAGA death cult" is literally the product of questioning authority. It's a situation where the establishment has lost control, leaving a vacuum of authority filled by TV personalities, conspiracy theorists, and complete randos.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#942

Post by pnf »

gumby wrote: post #181
pnf wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes someone qualified to be a teacher is also qualified to be a software engineer. Have you met a lot of urban public school teachers?

What has “urban” to do with it?

The parent comment answers itself. They would choose it because they actually don't have the alternative choice. In fact, aside from the transient young Teach for America type affluent idealists, most (not "all") urban public school teachers are gloried babysitters making good babysitting wages. If they teach kids anything it's usually something that should be untaught asap. By and large, the long hauler, professional urban public school teachers are not the type of people who have a ton of useful skills. In fact, the social skills useful for dealing with adults usually atrophy so even being a Software Project Manager is off the table. They become prisoners as much as the students, who at least have a definite term to serve and can get out early for bad behavior. For most kids, urban public schools are a policy solution to the social problem of young, unattended kids causing havoc, not a viable educational tool. Considered in that light they work pretty well.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#943

Post by psyc »

rayiner wrote: post #941
erdos4d wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same experience here going to school in the 90s, but I have the exact opposite take. I was taught to question authority and think this was one of the few really important lessons I received from school. I think that's why I was instinctively able to see through all the flag waving conformism after 9-11 and the current MAGA death cult. The lack of critical thinking I see from so many of my peers didn't arise from bein…

The "MAGA death cult" is literally the product of questioning authority. It's a situation where the establishment has lost control, leaving a vacuum of authority filled by TV personalities, conspiracy theorists, and complete randos.

This is like saying learning how to make bombs is literally the product of being self taught, since school teachers wouldn’t have taught you that.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#944

Post by dhosek »

ALittleLight wrote: post #898
dhosek wrote: post #457

Former HS math teacher here. It was the hardest job I’ve ever had. I still have nightmares about being back in the classroom 18 years later. I was easily working 12+ hours a day doing class planning, grading, etc. not to mention the actual teaching. Returning to programming my pay doubled and my stress level dropped profoundly. Teacher pay should easily be double what it is. (And about that summers off—with the excep…

I will never understand why teachers both do lots of extra work and complain about it. Teachers aren't slaves. If your job requires you to work 12 hour days quit and do something else. If you like working that hard, then why complain? Plus, my own experience in the public school system as a student tells me not all teachers are working 12, or even 8, hour days. Again, if you want to be a good teacher - why complain t…

>It's not like teachers are fired for being bad.

They are.

The exception tends to be at the poorest schools where the principals have trouble hiring and keeping teachers. When I was interviewing for teaching positions, I met with the principal for a school in South Central L.A. and the only question he asked me as, “do you promise not to quit before the end of the school year?”

Elsewhere bad teachers are fired, sometimes even in the middle of the school year.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#945

Post by dont__panic »

justin66 wrote: post #51
lr4444lr wrote: post #15

I realize this piece is more of a rant, and I won't hold it to a data accuracy standard it never pretended to have, but they pay issue is really misconstrued. Salaries in large urban districts are often well above area median, and when accounting for benefits and pension, quite impressive. In South Dakota and a number of states in the south and rural districts, yes it is another story, and it is bad. Also, teachers N…

> when accounting for benefits and pension That many teacher’s pensions require one to give up social security benefits makes the decision to teach more difficult, I would think, especially for those who are later in their working lives.

Most people in their 20s and 30s today aren't getting social security anyway, so maybe this is decreasing in importance?

Personally, I don't have much faith in pension systems either. The growth ponzi scheme for US stocks can only go on for so long, and many pensions have gone belly-up in the last decade or two even though the market has been incredibly good for most of that time. If we enter a recession that lasts more than 1 or 2 years, those pensions are going to end up in worrying places for anyone who isn't already cashing out.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#946

Post by lotsofpulp »

horsawlarway wrote: post #873
lotsofpulp wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Our daycare gets more expensive as the child ages - not less. I have shopped around daycares on east and west coast, and I have never encountered this type of pricing. Infants have always been more expensive than toddlers and pre K in at least 10 to 15 daycares I have priced. I also do not see the purpose of comparing prices for different prices of labor for justifying the prices. Physics teachers may very well need…

> I also do not see the purpose of comparing prices for different prices of labor for justifying the prices. Then you're unable to see that market forces are making it incredibly unattractive to be a teacher. The comparison is to point out the following: Why bother to take loans for college, then complete the additional certifications required for teaching, only to spend more effort at a career that will pay you cons…

>Then you're unable to see that market forces are making it incredibly unattractive to be a teacher.

Note that I agree with your statement of teachers not getting sufficient pay relative to quality of life at work. I even think this is true up and down, from daycare to physics high school.

I disagree with the chain of reasoning to support this view, however. You cannot derive this conclusion by looking at the price of daycare.

My claim is that the only thing you need to claim the price is too low for a product or service, is the lack of existence of said product or service given that it is not technologically impossible or such a rare talent or otherwise subject to forces of nature that affect its supply/demand. Which teachers generally are not.

And it is not just price that is too low, it is always price relative to quality of the product/service, or in this case, wages relative to quality of life at work (like having to deal with cumbersome admin, rude children, and entitled parents).

>For comparison - the well known private schools in our area (Paideia, Woodward, Lovett, Galloway, Westminster, etc) all charge at least 22k per student, and many go as high as 36k for high school.

But what are teachers getting paid? The point of my initial response to you was that you cannot compare annual tuition for daycare or private high schools and determine which are appropriate prices. Staffing ratios, liability insurance costs, there are a myriad factors that render this line of thinking erroneous.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#947

Post by danaris »

balderdash wrote: post #492
throw0101a wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. Counter-points to that: You still have to pay the bills before retirement. And this even assumes they get a good pensions, because a lot of states don't bother funding their public employee pensions properly (using current-year tax income for splashy announcements instead, kicking the liability down the road for the next politician): * htt…

If the general population were numerate enough, and there was enough transparency, there were would be riots in the streets over the NPV of retirement packages for public sector employees, these people are getting packages that are worth $2m,$5m,$10m at retirement (which could be 50ish!)

So...you're suggesting people should riot so they can get that, too, right? Not so they can tear other people down to only get the same pittance they do?

The public sector employees getting generous retirement packages are not the enemy. They are not the reason the rest of us are getting pissed on and told it's raining. That's the very wealthy and the politicians they've bought.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#948

Post by AtlasBarfed »

gorgoiler wrote: post #645

I tried teaching high school CS for the best part of two years in a private school. Everything to do with the pupils was amazing and I loved every moment. I am a natural with behaviour management and although it was stressful, every time the bad kids acted up it presented a teachable moment. You could really feel the impact on their lives and behaviour, well behind the Python and the TCP/IP and while loops. But every…

Anecdote leading the comments that is basically labor/victim blaming. One where you admit 1/3 of the teachers were the problem in a profession that burns out and makes people cynical. I also believe private school teachers are paid less than public school teachers in general, and often its a religious school so there is that litmus test that further degrades the pool.

Teaching is a difficult job. I've never heard anyone say its easy. It doesn't seem to be well paid. It's gotten harder over the years with the steady collapse in social services and prevalence of two income households. Standards and micromanagement increase year by year as part of the war on public education by the far right, functioning exactly as designed. It's rewarding for a time but wears you down.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#949

Post by kalimanzaro »

Wistar wrote: post #696
gorgoiler wrote: post #645

I tried teaching high school CS for the best part of two years in a private school. Everything to do with the pupils was amazing and I loved every moment. I am a natural with behaviour management and although it was stressful, every time the bad kids acted up it presented a teachable moment. You could really feel the impact on their lives and behaviour, well behind the Python and the TCP/IP and while loops. But every…

My wife is a primary public school teacher in the U.S. I read to her your comment, and she said to me, "We have 21 teachers at our school, and only one of them resembles what that comment describes."

That the high school teaching experience is vastly different from your wife's experiences teaching primary school children... seems to make sense?

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#950

Post by ALittleLight »

orestarod wrote: post #921
ALittleLight wrote: post #898

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will never understand why teachers both do lots of extra work and complain about it. Teachers aren't slaves. If your job requires you to work 12 hour days quit and do something else. If you like working that hard, then why complain? Plus, my own experience in the public school system as a student tells me not all teachers are working 12, or even 8, hour days. Again, if you want to be a good teacher - why complain t…

What happens if no one complains, nothing changes as a result, and everyone just quits instead? You get the current situation, which has not even developed fully. Most of what you take for granted is because someone at one point in time complained about how things were and tried to change them. If you are good enough, force change, just quitting it is an acceptance that you lose your battle and you go on to select an…

I've been hearing teachers complain about this kind of thing my entire life. To me, it seems like complaining isn't working. If anything, the issues teachers are facing are getting worse. This is because, I imagine, administrators know they can ignore the complaints and still get the output from the teachers at the given pay. If complaints don't hurt administrators, then they won't motivate change.

I think complaints can be useful in identifying a problem, but if your complaints have been made, just continuing to complain doesn't do anything. On the other hand, quitting, does two useful things. First, it takes you out of a bad situation letting you move on to a better one faster. Second, it helps brings the problem to a head. The administration can ignore teachers complaining, they cannot ignore teachers quitting. At some point they will have to resolve the issue.

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