Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#941

Post by bradlys » Sat, May 01, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

chii wrote: post #628

bradlys wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people I know who stop being software engineers do it because they found something more profitable. (Management, executive track, founding their own company, etc.) Part of the reason is that salary progression after the first 10 years is generally flat for IC level. Yet, it continues almost indefinitely for other tracks or roles related to software.

> salary progression after the first 10 years is generally flat for IC level that is expected, if the salary matched the value creation of an IC. There's a limit to how much work one can produce. The reason management has a higher progression is because they do different work, and thus the ceiling is different. But a ceiling does exist. The only "work" that has no ceiling for compensation is equity ownership.

I agree to some extent but I find that as an IC (especially in startups) you can add even more value than random middle manager or even some executives. Yet, you still don’t get compensated like that.

Many CTO’s I’ve dealt with were a net negative in terms for the company - yet, they still get 10x the equity and much higher salary. So... :/

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#942

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Sat, May 01, 2021, 8:16 PM UTC

v0x wrote: post #880

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum coverage, modest car, clean record, over 30 is ~$220/mo for most carriers here, $150 if you're eligible for USAA. For each factor you change you can add another 15%-40%. I'm paying $400/mo for 2 cars, no collision, above min medical.

That seems very high. I pay $28/mo with USAA. Clean record aside from a minor at-fault collision a few years back. edit: Upon further review, it's actually double that ($56/mo), as apparently it's billed in two-week intervals.

> That seems very high.

Yep. We all pay very high rates.

Household insurance isn't any better. We lost our last house because insurance increases over 4 years doubled our monthly mortgage payment.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#943

Post by dukeyukey » Sat, May 01, 2021, 8:22 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #895

TOGoS wrote: post #892

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are a variety of options between the extremes. There are a variety of options completely outside of that continuum. Like, how about a democratically planned economy where we intentionally work on things that actually help society instead of just whatever happens to make the most profit for the current owners? I think a big part of burnout is that the work we're doing is clearly pointless. I'm stuck writing de…

> I'm stuck writing debugging shitty Android apps all day. Can I please go plant some forests or something? If this was the status quo, there'd be just as many people thinking "I'm stuck outside doing manual labor planting trees. Can I please spent time doing something mindless sitting at a desk in a climate controlled workspace instead?" Someone out there is deriving value from the android app you're debugging or el…

Almost as if humans don't naturally adapt well to doing single isolated jobs for long periods of time. A sort of labour alienation, you could say.

I'm not saying it's not economically efficient to split up jobs this way, but it sure isn't good for your state of mind.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#944

Post by varispeed » Sat, May 01, 2021, 8:56 PM UTC

taurath wrote: post #913

varispeed wrote: post #854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem may also be that mom and pop shops are taxed much more heavily than big multinational corporations, that pay very little tax and thus have huge competitive advantage over small local businesses. I would think that any government caring about the local population would look into getting those companies to pay their fair share.

The areas where people vote for less and less government tend to be the places that have the most minimal services. I have yet to see an area that truly attracts business because of having low regulation and taxes, they all seem to have absolutey no businesses because there is no infrastructure to build upon, nor an existing business community to interact with.

The problem is that in most places the general population is absolutely fine for being fleeced. They pay 30%-40% tax for a privilege of working for a big corporation that only contribution to their society are the salaries they pay. All the rest gets siphoned out to tax havens. So far neither the so called left nor right have a clue how to fix this. That is a next level entitlement for corporations to expect people build infrastructure for them for free.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#945

Post by mensetmanusman » Sat, May 01, 2021, 9:00 PM UTC

drdeadringer wrote: post #221

cratermoon wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> propped up by debt Payday lenders make a killing on exploiting this.

I worked on a (US) Naval shipyard for a spell. The number of payday loan shops in the immediate surrounding area was astounding. I kept hearing word of "Don't Do Payday" financial help training for the Naval crew, who apparently were a prime target for the industry. Before working there, I had little idea such existed. Think "worse than 'cash your cheque here'" places. I don't know how many Naval folks I worked with…

I always wondered whether instantaneous payment would help solve this.

For example, our digital infrastructure could pay people per second and it could instantaneously show up in a bank account; if people were never waiting for these Delta function payments, maybe they would be less prone to being exploited by systems that seek to smooth out these Delta functions.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#946

Post by 8note » Sat, May 01, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #734

ehnto wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and raising the minimum wage is an attempt to control that by putting the costs back on the employer.

Who will simply either pass the costs along to the consumer, or shut down.

In a market system, a company that takes less profit would keep their prices low and put the other company out of business.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#947

Post by robocat » Sat, May 01, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

Itsdijital wrote: post #914

robocat wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real estate prices and rent are driven by how much people can only just afford it. If people earn more, they can afford a bigger mortgage, so house prices rise.

Yeah, but the counter to all that is building new housing, which unsurprisingly very difficult in these areas.

> but the counter to all that is building new housing

I would like to see some stats on that meme.

Anecdotally, what I think happens is that people buying second homes, vacation homes, and more people living one person to a home. People without homes are not clearly advantaged.

I live in Christchurch New Zealand, with a truely massive increase in standalone houses, and significant densification in the city center. However house prices are still booming, and plenty of friends are struggling to find a first home.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#948

Post by 8note » Sat, May 01, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

pyuser583 wrote: post #715

ehnto wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please think about the holistic nature of your argument. The sum of it's parts essentially suggests that taxpayers should subsidize the employment costs of businesses, which is ridiculous.

Aren’t you essentially saying that because the government spends lots of money on welfare/social support, it gets to control private business too? If the state chooses to offer benefits, great! But the state shouldn’t blame businesses having to offer those benefits. If the state wants people to have more money than the market provides, the state can simply increase benefits to that level. Wage subsidies are supported…

I would say the government gets to control private businesses because it is the government. Businesses exist at governments discretion. Everything about how business is done is within scope of the government to regulate

They should enforce things like minimum wage because it's doing welfare and social support, but they have the power regardless.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#949

Post by 8note » Sat, May 01, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #908

neilwilson wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm just saying that both sides of the equation need to be examined, i.e. the plight of the worker AND the plight of the business." It was examined. In 1944 in the Beverage Report "Full Employment in a Free Society". It concluded that people not earning sufficient to eat is an order of magnitude more harm than businesses not earning a profit and that the labour market should always be a sellers market, not a buyers…

> who are you going to sell the output of the robots to? to other people employing, manufacturing or investing in the robots Gains in a society goes to those that are doing something useful to contribute to increase productivity, such as providing the labor that increases the productivity or providing the capital to make that increased productivity a reality. While they won't get the gains, bystanders to this process…

Is there enough people doing that to justify the scale of robot based manufacturing?

I've only seen costs for stuff go up with inflation, and most people don't have wages that track inflation. The owners benefit from the cheaper costs, but nobody else does

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#950

Post by 8note » Sat, May 01, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #414

andrei_says_ wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Maintaining laws which force working employees into poverty in order to support inadequate business models is not the solution. Employees outnumber business owners - more people having spending power is vital for the economy.

>>which force working employees into poverty I think you have a widely unorthodox defination of "force" as no one is forced to take any job at any wage. Force in the equation would come from the government using the threat of government violence to force a wage on a business owner. A person that voluntary accepts a job for X wage is not "forced" to do so.

People are required to eat. Charging for food and only being able to work at X wage is force through collusion.

It wouldn't be by force if people did not need to pay for the basic necessities