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US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

bbc.co.uk

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Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#941

Post by _rs »

newaccount7 wrote: post #830
yumraj wrote: post #814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what were your symptoms that led you to go to the hospital to get checked for clots? What is someone getting a vaccine as such is supposed to look for?

I got a little out of breath doing simple tasks like walking briskly or picking up my kids, and I had a pain in my back (actually lung) that gradually got worse over a few days. Eventually the pain was severe enough that I went to the ER. Looking back, the shortness of breath was a key indicator. It wasn't that I was struggling to breathe or anything, but I felt like I couldn't take a big deep breath easily and that'…

How were you treated for this, and how has recovery been?

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#942

Post by necovek »

loveistheanswer wrote: post #887
mujina93 wrote: post #813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But airplaines are engineered by humans, we know everything about how they are supposed to work until the last bit of physics. We don't have the same absolute understanding of mechanisms with vaccines. Therefore, I am not sure we can use this metaphore to suggest that it is the right choice in this terrible time to stop vaccinations, causing slowdowns to happen and scepticism to spread in the population that is bomba…

>But airplaines are engineered by humans, we know everything about how they are supposed to work until the last bit of physics. >We don't have the same absolute understanding of mechanisms with vaccines. Having even less knowledge about how vaccines and our immune systems work seems like reason to be even more cautious, not less cautious. Especially considering the fact that autoimmune disorders have been on the rise…

> Especially considering the fact that autoimmune disorders have been on the rise for decades, and we don't know why.

Could it be that we are simply diagnosing them better?

Just throwing it out there as a plausible explanation since autoimmune disorders are commonly diagnosed based on a multitude of symptoms none of which definitely indicates an autoimmune disorder independently; similarly, I find it highly likely the rise in cancer diagnosis to be at least partially linked to better diagnostics too.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#943

Post by disabled »

_rs wrote: post #940
disabled wrote: post #872

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just a "blood clot" or some "rare type of blood clot". This was what I posted in this post about the European Medicines Agency acknowledging the AstraZeneca vaccine (which I was inoculated with) was linked to something never seen before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26725232 > "Zero surprises here. Both Norwegian and German research teams identified the /actual specific novel antibody/ that causes th…

Do you have any resources to read more about the research teams and their findings? Most of the articles I'm reading are very hand-wavy about the specifics/science and I'd love to actually learn more about the cause and condition.

The Los Angeles Times wrote an excellent article about the Johnson & Johnson (J&J) vaccine situation, in layman's terms [1]. However, journalists need to stop calling it "blood clots" or "rare blood clots", and instead call it a "rare clotting syndrome" that is "novel (new) and previously unclassified". For the AstraZeneca (AZ) vaccine situation, there has also been other good journalism sources here [2][3]. Pay attention to the subsection on [3] stating "Nothing but the vaccine can explain why".

In both cases, the situation is clinically similar to Heparin-induced thrombocytopenia (HIT), although there are very distinct differences. It should not be used as a comparison.

This is a good peer-reviewed journal article on diagnosis and management [4]. This is another article describing the syndrome [5].

I should emphasize that the treatment that is used for this specific syndrome is extremely expensive: intravenous immunoglobulin. I personally take the same medication (immunoglobulin) subcutaneously (under-the-skin) twice per week, for 2 rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system. I will require this medication for life. When I lived in the USA (I live in Croatia now), my medical insurance was paying $278,000/year for the medication, under contract. I am not talking about how much the medication was being billed for, which was way higher. So, you heard me right, my insurance paid $278,000/year for this type of medication.

[1] Here’s what we know about J&J’s vaccine and rare blood clots: https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-04-13/what-we-kno...

[2] ‘It’s a very special picture.’ Why vaccine safety experts put the brakes on AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-pi...

[3] Norwegian experts say deadly blood clots were caused by the AstraZeneca covid vaccine: https://sciencenorway.no/covid19/norwegian-experts-say-deadl...

[4] Diagnosis and Management of Vaccine-RelatedThrombosis following AstraZeneca COVID-19Vaccination: Guidance Statement from the GTH: https://zlmsg.ch/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/2021_Diagnosis-a...

[5] A Prothrombotic Thrombocytopenic Disorder Resembling Heparin-Induced Thrombocytopenia Following Coronavirus-19 Vaccination: https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-362354/v1

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#944

Post by refurb »

vmladenov wrote: post #673
arcticbull wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The (1/7 million) is the current, unconditional and empirically observed adverse effect of the vaccine - this is a somewhat noisy measure of the true prevalence of this issue. It is okay to be cautious and there are legitimate concerns, and quite frankly, I trust the FDA have good reason to pause this if Moderna/Pfizer are readily available anywy. How many injections do you personally need to feel comfortable? Seve…

This comment is a prime example of why we’re in this mess with vaccine denial in the first place. You’re either not allowed to say anything negative about vaccines, or you’re an anti-vaxxer who thinks your kids will get autism and 5G chips. It’s so cult-like. We should be honest about the (low) risks and benefits of vaccination without turning it into a political campaign of shame and bullying, and trust people to ma…

Exactly this. A lot of conversation seems to ignore how humans behave. Pausing, examining data and restarting with updated guidelines further encourages confidence in the process.

Imagine if the FDA says "no big deal, low chance of it happening, keep going", then a week from now "oh seem like the rate has doubled, still low, keep going", then a week later "ok, if you have any risk of blood clots don't take the J&J vaccine". That scream "we didn't think this would happen".

You've just eroded trust in the system and the next time some weird side effects comes up you won't have to pause, people will just refuse to take it.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#945

Post by wikibob »

disabled wrote: post #943
_rs wrote: post #940

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any resources to read more about the research teams and their findings? Most of the articles I'm reading are very hand-wavy about the specifics/science and I'd love to actually learn more about the cause and condition.

The Los Angeles Times wrote an excellent article about the Johnson & Johnson (J&J) vaccine situation, in layman's terms [1]. However, journalists need to stop calling it "blood clots" or "rare blood clots", and instead call it a "rare clotting syndrome" that is "novel (new) and previously unclassified". For the AstraZeneca (AZ) vaccine situation, there has also been other good journalism sources here [2][3]. Pay atte…

Can you share some experiences with healthcare and the healthcare payment system in Croatia?

I think we would all be fascinated to hear first hand accounts from someone who's also experienced the abysmal US system.

What does your immunoglobulin cost in Croatia?

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#946

Post by gls2ro »

mujina93 wrote: post #816
cyberlurker wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the fact that they are being this cautious is a good thing for public trust. We have other vaccines as well. I rather have this level of transparency then blindly tell people to get JJ and we will figure out edge cases later.

Is it that good? There are places where lots of people are refusing to get the vaccine if they hear it's Astra-Zeneca, because of all the overblown nightmarish news around it. I can tell you for example that in Italy there are examples of regions where 80% of people refuse. I understand the need for being cautious and for transparency. Actually, I would like to have even more transparency and actual scientific data a…

> refusing to get the vaccine if they hear it's Astra-Zeneca, because of all the overblown nightmarish news around it

Here is a small problem with this that makes me also consider if I want to take a shot with AZ even if I registered for it months ago waiting for my place:

Before EU started discussing the issue with statistical signifiant number of cases of blood clots in vaccinated population UK Reported 5 cases of blot clots in vaccinated population.

After EU talked second time to suspend vaccination with AZ lo and behold UK discovered that it missed in previous months to report 25 more cases.

Now should I trust any of these agencies that they are telling the truth? I am starting not.

But I had a mild COVID and I am sure after experiencing those symptoms that I really want a vaccine. I am not willing to experience a reinfection.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#947

Post by disabled »

wikibob wrote: post #945
disabled wrote: post #943

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Los Angeles Times wrote an excellent article about the Johnson & Johnson (J&J) vaccine situation, in layman's terms [1]. However, journalists need to stop calling it "blood clots" or "rare blood clots", and instead call it a "rare clotting syndrome" that is "novel (new) and previously unclassified". For the AstraZeneca (AZ) vaccine situation, there has also been other good journalism sources here [2][3]. Pay atte…

Can you share some experiences with healthcare and the healthcare payment system in Croatia? I think we would all be fascinated to hear first hand accounts from someone who's also experienced the abysmal US system. What does your immunoglobulin cost in Croatia?

Sorry, but this is not relevant to this discussion. I refuse to flood this extremely long thread with details that are not relevant to the readers clicking on this thread. Please see my profile and email me instead, for specific answers.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#948

Post by sameboat632746 »

cyberlurker wrote: post #786
kaczordon wrote: post #770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH, if this being in the news causes fewer people to get vaccinated, pausing it may be a mistake that will cause more overall deaths This is the reason people lost trust in the medical community during COVID.

Yes, the fact that they are being this cautious is a good thing for public trust. We have other vaccines as well. I rather have this level of transparency then blindly tell people to get JJ and we will figure out edge cases later.

I was scheduled for JnJ vaccine tomorrow but late in evening I got a text that my appointment is cancelled. I was conflicted all day about whether to keep my appointment or cancel it. I am sort of relieved that someone else made this decision for me and honestly makes me feel good about getting another vaccine. This assures me if there were or are any issues with any other vaccines, our regulators would have paused those vaccines too.

Also I was able to get another appointment for Moderna vaccine next week. So I just have to spend another 4 weeks or so social distancing. It is better than developing blood clots, imo.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#949

Post by ryankemper »

fastball wrote: post #923
ryankemper wrote: post #842

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true; the PDF linked in the GC has to make a number of assumptions and is very obviously made from a point of bias (which does not invalidate its claims but warrants extra scrutiny). Also it's comparing raw ICU admissions, but there are a number of really nasty adverse reactions that don't throw you in the ICU. The general "second shot syndrome" that something like half of people getting Pfizer/Moderna experien…

Why do you assume that people who are getting second shot syndrome would be the same people who would have asymptomatic COVID-19? That seems... far-fetched at best.

Second shot syndrome is apparently worse in the young (20's / 30's) due to the stronger immune response. I wasn't assuming that everyone who gets the syndrome would be asymp. but just that many would.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#950

Post by antman »

disabled wrote: post #947
wikibob wrote: post #945

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you share some experiences with healthcare and the healthcare payment system in Croatia? I think we would all be fascinated to hear first hand accounts from someone who's also experienced the abysmal US system. What does your immunoglobulin cost in Croatia?

Sorry, but this is not relevant to this discussion. I refuse to flood this extremely long thread with details that are not relevant to the readers clicking on this thread. Please see my profile and email me instead, for specific answers.

Just how much it costs mow would probably not be considered flooding though and its probably more informational
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