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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#931

Post by mtrimpe »

JPKab wrote: post #912
Joeboy wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. They might be offensive to people raised in some cultures / subcultures, and they don't sound like they're great jokes in any culture, but nobody ever told me about the meeting where women decided knob jokes were offensive. In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago.

It wasn't offensive. I see a lot of cases of ACTUAL, OFFENSIVE sexism on HN. This isn't it. This is an attention addict using whatever means at her disposal to get attention, without a thought as to the cost to those she uses as pawns. We all have encountered both males and females that are real victims, and we have also all encountered people who pretend to be offended for attention. I use to work in the deep south,…

Now if that's not an ad-hominem I don't know what is. Adria got pissed at overhearing some inappropriate jokes, snapped a picture and tweeted her indignation.

It might not have been the wisest thing to do, but she didn't fire that guy; she just got offended. It's her right to get offended here and it's the other guy's right to (accidentally) offend her.

The only dicks here are

a) Playhaven unless, like I suspect, the other guy had a track record of this sort of stuff.

b) the anonymous cowards of the lynch mob that's pouring a deluge of hatred out over Adria.

And yes, Adria might be a flaming attention seeking self-centered bitch (not that I have any indication of that) but even if she were, that still doesn't warrant the lynch mob that has assembled here, which is the real issue we should be discussing.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#932

Post by klez »

lizzard wrote: post #166
SODaniel wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal vendetta or not. A person that reacts to a private conversation (inappropriate or not) by posting hearsay about two co-workers to 1000s of followers the way she did is NOT a person I would want to work with, even less hire. She has at the very least shown very bad judgement and should not be commended nor rewarded for it.

Reporting on something we've directly experienced isn't hearsay and they weren't her co-workers. As women we need to be able to speak in public forums about our experiences without this sort of extreme harassment as the result.

To me it seems the harassment (I hope you mean DDoSing her website, not this thread and the discussion it caused) is in response to the publication of the photo, not the fact that she spoke out.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#933

Post by mcherm »

vacri wrote: post #899
mcherm wrote: post #870

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was not "just anything", and all conference participants were on notice that this SPECIFIC behavior was prohibited at PyCon. Read the code of conduct for PyCon: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/ Not specifically the lines "Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue" and "Remember that harassment and sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes are not appropriate for PyCon."…

Just curious - do you read every word of every EULA you come across, or do you just get the gist of it? Also, "Remember that harassment and sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes are not appropriate for PyCon" doesn't appear to have anything to do with what the men said, though perhaps you quoted it for the subsequent harassment on twitter?

> do you read every word of every EULA you come across, or do you just get the gist of it?

Fair question: I TRY to read every word, and I'd say I succeed no more than 10% of the time. If I had attended PyCon (I didn't make it this year) I would have been aware of the harassment policy but only because I remember the discussion LAST year (or was it the year before...) which led to the creation of the policy.

But if you are suggesting that it is OK to violate the policy just because not everyone reads it, then I have to object. Such an approach makes it impossible to maintain ANY policy. Perhaps the PyCon organizers should recognize that not everyone will have read the policy carefully and should therefore have a measured response... but in this case they DID have a measured response, and I have heard no one suggest that the PyCon organizers responded unreasonably.

As for the firing, well I have heard no one defending the company for their position either.

> Also, "Remember that harassment and sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes are not appropriate for PyCon" doesn't appear to have anything to do with what the men said

I quoted it only because of the explicit reference to "jokes".

Re: The PyCon Incident

#934

Post by justanother »

Is it possible there's enough blame to go around? I've been to plenty of conferences, and would never make such a joke where it could be overheard (I'd have the common decency to type it on the iPad to the guy next to me), to avoid exactly this situation. No, Adria didn't have to go Full Hall Monitor on them, but since she did, her employer didn't have to fire the offenders, either. I know for a fact that my employer might have privately been Very Disappoint, but would completely support me in public.

The engineers have learned a valuable lesson and will soon be hired someplace nicer.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#935

Post by fortawesome »

obstacle1 wrote: post #574
revelation wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understood correctly, Adria is not another employee, but has the role of developer evangelist. In that role, your twitter account is very much an extension of your job.

In that light, I do not understand how this woman is still employed. https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/6039856858 Who exactly is she "evangelizing" for? All developers? I find that really hard to believe given her extremely public politics.

This is actually the academically accepted definition of racism. In that definition, only white people can be racist. This came as a complete shock to me in my race, class, and gender course. Be extension, it also means women cannot be sexist against men, as men are considered in the position of power.

Again, these are the academically accepted definitions.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#936

Post by clubhi »

groby_b wrote: post #747
clubhi wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't sound like much fun. I work with many women and men... We are all make horrible sex jokes throughout the day. Are you the guy sitting by yourself at lunch?

No, I happen to be the woman who actually enjoys hanging out with her current colleagues - who all strangely managed to grow up past puberty.

Your comment about puberty is pretty offensive.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#937

Post by imsofuture »

I'm shocked by the responses is on display here.

I think firing people was vastly overreacting and whatever they were saying was probably pretty innocuous. But! Adria is well within her rights to be offended by anything and to act as she did. She hasn't done the slightest thing inappropriate. The bandwagoning crucifixion here speaks volumes about our community. I am extremely embarrassed.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#938

Post by sp332 »

a_c_s wrote: post #927
sp332 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit dehumanizing to be forced to act like sexuality doesn't exist. This wasn't propositioning anyone, it wasn't insulting anyone, it wasn't explicit. It was a few lame jokes. I (personally) have no problem watching myself in these situations, but it always feels artificial. I'm not sure what American society is doing to women, but it leaves some of them incapable of dealing with any amount of sexuality. (Again…

Sex, religion, drugs & politics are all subjects that should stay out of the workplace. You can participate in all of these activities outside of the workplace - that's not dehumanization, that's maturity and professionalism.

What part of society are you talking about? I work in a cubicle farm in the USA, which is pretty touchy about that stuff. But the training I just got last week made it clear that those topics are fine as long as they don't constitute harassment.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#939

Post by [deleted] »

MrScruff wrote: post #819
mwetzler wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised by the "eeew" attached to being a woman in tech. Is there really that much stigma with saying "I am a woman"? I get that we all just want to be technologists and not "female technologists" but it's a red flag that people use this kind of mitigating speech when sharing their views. It's unfair to assume Adria is "sheltered". In fact she has dealt with a great deal more than most of us, from domestic abus…

I agree that she doesn't deserve some of the vitriol her way. Particularly the misogynistic stuff which is particularly stupid considering the context. However it's also true that she was the one who chose the nuclear option, and has to live with the consequences of that. If I (as a guy) had behaved as she did, I would expect long threads on HN & Reddit telling me what an asshole I am. The problem seems to be that he…

[deleted]

Re: The PyCon Incident

#940

Post by obstacle1 »

fortawesome wrote: post #935
obstacle1 wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that light, I do not understand how this woman is still employed. https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/6039856858 Who exactly is she "evangelizing" for? All developers? I find that really hard to believe given her extremely public politics.

This is actually the academically accepted definition of racism. In that definition, only white people can be racist. This came as a complete shock to me in my race, class, and gender course. Be extension, it also means women cannot be sexist against men, as men are considered in the position of power. Again, these are the academically accepted definitions.

It isn't "the" academically accepted definition, though. It is one definition that's accepted in some social sciences depts., usually sociology, and usually ones w/ critical theory-oriented faculties. Walk into Georgetown poli sci and tell them white people can't be racist.

Edit: also consider that the way Adria phrased it IS NEVER the academically accepted definition, because black people are fully capable of becoming an oppressive class vis-a-vis white people. It may not be the case at this time where Adria lives, but it certainly can be the case. So the statement that black people can NEVER be racist towards whites is less an elucidation of this definition, and more an expression of Adria's own racism.

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