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U.S. science is in chaos

scientificamerican.com

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Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#931

Post by skulk »

haberman wrote: post #885
skulk wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This group of people you're describing ("scientists who are only willing to do science if it involves preferential treatment") is simply not real. The idea that academics would cling to DEI statements or refuse funding is beyond laughable, and could only be dreamt up by someone who has never experienced academia.

It happened directly at least once: https://www.science.org/content/article/u-s-college-first-de... It happens indirectly all the time. As of 2025, despite all the funding cuts, the AAAS is still publishing its yearly DEI report, now rebranded as an "Inclusivity for Excellence Report", but containing all of the same stuff: an effort to collect and publish as much demographic data as possible, and a stated goal of get…

Williams College wasn't content to blindly follow a vague directive restricting their speech. They already received very few grants as the article said. You better bet most scientists at big institutions were tripping over themselves to police their own speech to ensure they aren't uttering any of the new forbidden words like "engender."

> These practices are too ingrained and sacrosanct at this point to let a mere funding crisis throw them off course.

Yes, some people have egalitarian principles. As much as you think there is a conspiracy against your group to keep you down it's just not true.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#932

Post by Windchaser »

blindriver wrote: post #632
ikrenji wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

raise taxes on the rich, cut pentagon funding by 90% and you solved society

Cutting military should be done, yes. But everything needs to get cut.

No, cutting R&D is the same as eating our seed corn. These programs pay off a lot in the long run, because they're a core and unavoidable part of technological progress.

They also tend to pay off big in societal progress. As an example, researching teaching and learning better results in better education, which results in better-trained kids and a more productive society. Research into clinical psychology leads to better therapy and emotionally healthier and well-adjusted people. Etc.

Science funding is one of the best investments we can make into the long-term success of the country, and it's a gross mistake to cut it. Literally one of the biggest mistakes we can commit. Science is a big part of what keeps us moving forward, and it is outlandishly cheap compared to the benefits.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#933

Post by titzer »

LadyCailin wrote: post #908
wins32767 wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any idea how smug this sounds to about half the people that need to pay for the scientific funding? I'm not a Republican, but even I'm turned off by this sort of attitude.

I stopped caring about hurting the feelings of conservatives when they started intentionally fucking over everyone just to make liberals mad. Catering to their stupidity is called appeasement, and just ask the Europeans how that works out.

When someone is skeptical and wants ask questions, it's reasonable to hear them out. When said person fails to listen or accept basic facts (that allow establishing a shared reality), we should turn the volume down on them.

If Tommy, age 7, asks if the Earth is round, teachers should explain how we know the Earth is round and give Tommy a couple of ways to check. When Tommy comes back at age 27, having done no experiments, convinced the Earth is flat, and alleging a massive global conspiracy to hide that fact for domination, we should ignore Tommy. If Tommy persists, the amount of embarrassment and shame they face should be proportional to how loud they are.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#934

Post by titzer »

okeuro49 wrote: post #231

> But arbitrary cancellations and delayed disbursements are unprecedented. And justifying them on the basis of politics—prohibiting, for instance, grants that include language referencing diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI)—was unheard of until now. It is odd how removal of DEI is framed as being political, when it is the other way round. DEI schemes were deeply political, and depended on who can claim to be the bi…

> DEI schemes were deeply political, and depended on who can claim to be the biggest victim.

Disagree. This is just defaulting to "it makes one of the political poles angry, it must be political".

DEI isn't about achieving or gaining political power for "the left", but anti-DEI is absolutely about gaining political power for the right-wing reactionaries.

DEI didn't just come from nowhere. Data supports the idea that groups with more diversity and representation are not only more fair, but also more efficient and robust. The point of DEI was to make our systems stronger by helping everyone participate. That means addressing structural problems that discourage and even prevent many people from participating. DEI didn't just come about because they wanted to see fewer white faces and more brown faces. It's actually based on Science!

There are just too many right-wing reactionaries, and as a society we humor them too much! Everything feels threatening to right wing reactionaries. They're afraid of vaccines for fuck sake! They believe that "DEI = hating white people". Learning new things threatens the cultivated ignorance that keeps their political masters able to control them, which is ironic because the little house cats think they they are lions.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#935

Post by JohnMakin »

watersb wrote: post #807
JohnMakin wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered the fact the majority of the US is not designed for public transit, or it doesn’t exist at all? Most cities aren’t even walkable let alone practical for bike transit due to long distance commutes and lack of infrastructure?“hurrr americans are just addicted to cars” is a really reductive take.

> Have you considered the fact the majority of the US is not designed for public transit, or it doesn’t exist at all? There exist societies that have made different choices. The car dependency isn't an act of God.

Yes, societies have made different choices over the course of 100+ years. How do you suggest a city like say, LA is fixed? What is a commuter from dayton ohio to cincinnati supposed to do?

The gp comment made it sound like something americans just choose, when the reality of the situation is it is a necessary part of life. The people participating in it didn’t make this choice. Literally everyone wants something better and no one wants to be beholden to $6 gas prices.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#936

Post by thorin »

saturn8601 wrote: post #588
ArmadilloGang wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family is looking at Missouri to Spain. Why Spain: Expat communities, cost of living, friendly visa options, beautiful climate. Why leave: Sick of U.S. politics and the way it directly and indirectly affects us and how difficult it is to escape from it - it’s a major point of conversations with family and friends, it’s on the local radio, local subreddit, local social media pages, etc. Also, I have over $7k in per…

Man Spain is mentioned as a top destination with expat influencers, youtubers and now even on hn. I get the feeling that something is going to crack at some point. You must be pricing out locals and they can't be happy about that.

Spain is a pretty big country in terms of space. It's been full of British expats for years a lot of whom had to leave due to Brexit so can probably stand to have a few more influencers move over.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#937

Post by Windchaser »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #440
MisterTea wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conservatives have been basically purged from academia over the last 30 years, Any citations on this?

More likely that conservatives turned liberal once the right went all in on anti-intellectualism. Of course the real question is: what does conservative even mean any more? The joining of Falwell and Reagan fucked both conservatism and evangelical Christianity.

Yep, it's at least partly this. I watched a lot of "moderate" academics become "liberal" after Trump's first election.

If you're a scientist by principles and a moderate by political views, and the right-wing party comes out in opposition to science, well, it's fair that you might then join the "pro-science party". Being pro-science becomes a liberal position.

So it's not that conservatives were "purged" from the ranks of academia.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#938

Post by neverrroot »

neverrroot wrote: post #569

> How did we get here? Careful what you wish for, that’s how. Just a simple example: when you play with firm biological facts, you might just open it all up to being bent. But then, wasn’t that maybe the goal all along?

Naval had a great tweet recently:

“Science is not a process, a credential, or an institution. It is the unflinching pursuit of truth, carried out by the few, co-opted by the many.”

When did we start institutionalizing it? How about letting the truth be bent? What about the focus on consensus? That’s also what lead to the current situation.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#939

Post by Varelion »

My wife has a Masters in Biotech and has presented in national conferences. Anyone has a good lead on where the next science hub would be? She is amazing at what she does, but the current status has her studying SWE so she can land a job, and that really kills me on the inside.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#940

Post by handle584 »

irishcoffee wrote: post #298
handle584 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well why Americans are not willing to take those PhD offers that pay barely above poverty line for 5 years or so? The answer is obvious, they would rather take a job in industry that pays miles better. There is really no reason to be resentful because it is a voluntary choice, and foreign students are worse off in every aspect to start with. Leaving friends & family behind, travel often involves long-haul flights, di…

> There is really no reason to be resentful because it is a voluntary choice, and foreign students are worse off in every aspect to start with. > Leaving friends & family behind, travel often involves long-haul flights, different culture to blend in, not eligible for NSF grants and national lab jobs, etc. Long flights and leaving friends/family behind? You mean like... most undergrad students in the US? Sitting on a…

By which it is implied such trips are obviously non-starters for foreign students. This is the most evident during Thanksgiving and Christmas when most undergrad students in the US reunion with their family and friends.
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