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Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

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Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#931

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some cultures legitimately are less hard working though. Ironically most of these cultures are western, the biggest examples are southern European cultures. As far as immigrants though, approximately 100% of them wish to be productive members of society, I agree. You dont go through the effort of emigrating without an entrepreneurial spirit.

>the biggest examples are southern European cultures Source for that statement? Because I see the opposite. https://landgeist.com/2023/09/02/annual-working-hours-in-eur... >approximately 100% of them wish to be productive members of society Oh honey.

Working 1600 hours a year is low. Poland is above 2k. I know many, many immigrants. 95% of them are incredibly hard workers. They take work more seriously than the vast majority of native borns. Their kids are a different story, but the immigrants themselves work their asses off.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#932

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For purposes of comparing countries to each other and the same country over time, it’s not 30% off. The average skews higher than the median everywhere, so it’ll be 1.3/1.x. If you have reported median incomes that are calculated the same way across countries and over time, that would be better. But many countries don’t reliably track that data, and the ones that do calculate it in completely different ways.

That all sounds reasonable. My concern was with your quote > GDP/capita aligns very closely with material standard of living for the median person GDP per capita is an average. This means it does not align with the _median_ person, but with the average. I believe this is factual and undeniable. No doubt it is interesting too to try to find other metrics for different usages as well. > For purposes of comparing countr…

Replacing the average with the median is not some brilliant move that clarifies any question about an economy. For example, reducing the income of the bottom 49.9% of society to zero would not affect the median income at all.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#933
post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very simplistic and I would say there is more reason than only consumerism. People still might have kids they just have it less - they are happy to have only one kid because they fill fulfilled and also they cannot afford 2 or 3. Standard and expectation also increased and even thought I grew up with 2 siblings in 2 bedroom apartment in Poland today nobody would want that - or good luck finding a partner that…

The things you list as ostensibly different from consumerism are for the most part consequences and manifestations of consumerism. They are downstream from the consumerist ethos. So these are superficial distinctions. Inquire into the causes. For example, why do people say they can't afford more children? Materially, we're the wealthiest we've ever been in human history. We are in the best possible position in human…

I think you are collapsing too many different causes into a single explanation.

Yes, consumerism probably influences expectations and lifestyles. But many of the things I mentioned are not just superficial manifestations of consumerism - they are structural economic and social changes.

When people say they "cannot afford" more children, they usually do not mean literal starvation or inability to keep a child alive. They mean they cannot afford the living standard that modern society effectively requires or expects for a family with multiple children.

I mentioned, in Poland when I was growing up, it was normal for 3 kids to share a small apartment and for grandparents to help raise children. Today, many young adults had to move to larger cities for education and work, far away from their families. That removes a major support system.

Now both parents usually need to work, which creates additional costs: larger housing near jobs, childcare, kindergarten, transportation, often even a second car. These are not just luxury consumerist indulgences but practical requirements of modern urban life.

> Materially, we're the wealthiest we've ever been in human history.

But wealth being higher on average does not mean family formation became easier for the middle class. Housing costs in major cities relative to income are a huge factor, especially for people who are not poor enough to qualify for assistance and not rich enough to comfortably absorb the costs.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#934
post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per capita Slovakia gets more EU funding than Poland yet the results are poor.

Not by much, and the trend is still there, which is the original point I was replying to

It would be hard to argue that throwing money at the problem would make it worse. I'm just saying the correlation is weak. Compare with Switzerland which is not in EU.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#935

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The relationship is complex. Remember the Marshall Plan was needed partly because massive amounts of European infrastructure and industry which had occurred in some cases long before the USA even joined the war. The USA had the benefit of being resource rich, but also geographically isolated which meant that the continental USA never suffered from severe bombing raids or threats of invasion. (Many European towns and…

>Remember the Marshall Plan was needed partly because massive amounts of European infrastructure and industry which had occurred in some cases long before the USA even joined the war. How does that change things? You could just as easily argue that Poland's economy was ruined by the USSR, therefore EU help is "complex". Europe was an unfortunate spot, due to a war which started in Europe, and the US helped Europe def…

Poland's economic woes were caused by Germany. It was not able to regrow its economy due to its Cold War government.

"Europe was an unfortunate spot, due to a war which started in Europe"

That is arguable. Some Asians say the war started in the Far East with Japanese attacks on China and the USSR which occurred before 1939, let alone 1941.

"I never see Europeans complain about Swiss neutrality. The US should take the Swiss approach."

Switzerland is not a militaristic power, but an economic one. It is not expansionist. It is currently the host country of the World Economic Forum though, and the WEF's legacy is controversial to say the least.

"Lord knows Europe wouldn't help the US rebuild if we suffered a devastating war. There was no European Marshall Plan after the US Civil War."

The US Civil War had nothing like the scale of WW2. The tank battle at Kursk alone dwarves the US Civil War. Large parts of the USA were unaffected by the civil war and both sides had the same language and a similar culture.

"That's what we do about poverty in Africa and South America. We don't regard that as our problem. Europe should not be our problem either."

North America and Europe have interfered heavily in both Africa and South America. Not just militarily but economically, propping up and training various dictators. The USA just bailed out Millei in Argentina and intervened in Venezuela.

Europe is a lot friendlier to the USA than most parts of the world and is a major part of its trade. Elsewhere it becomes more complicated.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#936

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Remember the Marshall Plan was needed partly because massive amounts of European infrastructure and industry which had occurred in some cases long before the USA even joined the war. How does that change things? You could just as easily argue that Poland's economy was ruined by the USSR, therefore EU help is "complex". Europe was an unfortunate spot, due to a war which started in Europe, and the US helped Europe def…

Poland's economic woes were caused by Germany. It was not able to regrow its economy due to its Cold War government. "Europe was an unfortunate spot, due to a war which started in Europe" That is arguable. Some Asians say the war started in the Far East with Japanese attacks on China and the USSR which occurred before 1939, let alone 1941. "I never see Europeans complain about Swiss neutrality. The US should take the…

>Poland's economic woes were caused by Germany. It was not able to regrow its economy due to its Cold War government.

So the notion that Poland should be grateful to Europe is rather farcical.

>That is arguable. Some Asians say the war started in the Far East with Japanese attacks on China and the USSR which occurred before 1939, let alone 1941.

The European war started in Europe.

>Switzerland is not a militaristic power, but an economic one. It is not expansionist.

Exactly, I'm saying the US should take that route. Our military posture should be armed neutrality like Switzerland rather than propping up European regimes.

>The US Civil War had nothing like the scale of WW2.

On a population-adjusted basis they were similar. Wikipedia states:

"Based on 1860 census figures, 8 percent of all white men aged 13–43 died in the war, including 6 percent in the North and 18 percent in the South."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War#Casualties

You can see WW2 figures for "total deaths as % of 1939 population" here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/World_Wa...

>The tank battle at Kursk alone dwarves the US Civil War.

Based on a quick glance at Wikipedia this appears to be false.

But the population-adjusted figures are the ones that matter. The US Civil War was about as devastating to the US as it existed in the 1860s as WW2 was to Europe as it existed in the 1940s. Europe did not do much to help with rebuilding.

>Large parts of the USA were unaffected by the civil war

Sure--and Sweden, Spain, Portugal, etc. were not heavily affected in Europe.

>both sides had the same language and a similar culture.

Not relevant for my point.

>North America and Europe have interfered heavily in both Africa and South America. Not just militarily but economically, propping up and training various dictators. The USA just bailed out Millei in Argentina and intervened in Venezuela.

>Europe is a lot friendlier to the USA than most parts of the world and is a major part of its trade. Elsewhere it becomes more complicated.

When it comes to authoritarians, I notice the US always does the wrong thing. If we cooperate with authoritarians, we are "propping them up". If we help resist them, we are "destabilizing". If we sit by and do nothing, we are "complicit". Whatever the US does, there is always a term you can use to explain why the US is the villain, without having to learn any details of the situation. It's a sealed system of knowledge akin to a religion.

In any case, it sounds like you're with me that the US should be more isolationist then. I don't know why you're trying to argue with me, when you agree with my conclusion. Between "propping up", "destabilizing", and "complicit", I say "complicit" is the best answer. That's why I advocate complicity towards Europe. European problems should stay European. We shouldn't be "propping up" repressive European regimes: https://eternallyradicalidea.com/p/the-situation-for-free-sp...

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#937

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland's economic woes were caused by Germany. It was not able to regrow its economy due to its Cold War government. "Europe was an unfortunate spot, due to a war which started in Europe" That is arguable. Some Asians say the war started in the Far East with Japanese attacks on China and the USSR which occurred before 1939, let alone 1941. "I never see Europeans complain about Swiss neutrality. The US should take the…

>Poland's economic woes were caused by Germany. It was not able to regrow its economy due to its Cold War government. So the notion that Poland should be grateful to Europe is rather farcical. >That is arguable. Some Asians say the war started in the Far East with Japanese attacks on China and the USSR which occurred before 1939, let alone 1941. The European war started in Europe. >Switzerland is not a militaristic p…

"the notion that Poland should be grateful to Europe is rather farcical."

Poland has always been in Europe, and so was Germany. The USSR was partly in Europe as well. Maybe you mean the European Union? In which case, it may be a temporary fix, because as Poland becomes wealthier, the cheapness of labour no longer applies.

"The European war started in Europe."

It was never purely a European conflict. Several major

"Sure--and Sweden, Spain, Portugal, etc. were not heavily affected in Europe."

Spain stayed out of the main conflict because it had just been in a war in which the USSR, Germany and Italy were all involved. Gernika/Guernica was famously bombed from the air by the Germans. Franco may not have even won without external help. Like Japanese aggression before 1939, it can be argued that the Spanish Civil War was the beginnings of WW2.

Portugal's shipping was at heavy risk, especially to and from the Azores and Madeira. Macau ended up under informal occupation by Japan, with "advisors" installed there. Portugal was in no position to take on Japan.

Sweden was in no position to negotiate and traded with Germany, Finland and Nazi-occupied Denmark & Norway. It was effectively a satellite state.

"Based on a quick glance at Wikipedia this appears to be false."

You shouldn't have to look at Wikipedia. Kursk was the biggest tank battle in history with thousands of units taking part. That should be common knowledge. It dwarves anything in the US civil war.

"When it comes to authoritarians, I notice the US always does the wrong thing. If we cooperate with authoritarians, we are "propping them up". If we help resist them, we are "destabilizing". If we sit by and do nothing, we are "complicit". Whatever the US does, there is always a term you can use to explain why the US is the villain, without having to learn any details of the situation. It's a sealed system of knowledge akin to a religion."

It was put succinctly by one American, if I can mind rightly... Someone was told that some dictator was a bastard, and the reply was "But he's our bastard." Something like that. Al Haig made similar statements. Kissinger asked about East Timor said something like, "that was an island, you should see what I can do with continents". Again quoting from memory.

I think the "our bastard" mentality applies to Saudi Arabia and the Ukraine, which is an utterly corrupt country but in which there have been concerted attempts to orientate it away from Russia, even to the point of adopting the western date of Christmas. (I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Zelensky tries to advocate for the Roman alphabet in future as well.)

The USA has helped create some positive changes across the world, but often does so with an iron fist and an end to help itself. This is my main worry with Cuba... It may throw off its Communist dictatorship, but just end up a corrupt US satellite as it was under Batista.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#938

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, since you're so well travelled you can also share examples of the US doing it, with the comparison to these other amazing utopian western countries. Start with education spending per capita.

> Start with education spending per capita If you think spending per capita is a measure of quality, I’ve got a great health insure scam to sell you!

Spending per capita is absolutely correlated with education outcomes.
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