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ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

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Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#931

Post by sofixa »

aguaviva wrote: post #899
owenversteeg wrote: post #893

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that the "rules-based world order" as most people perceive it never really existed. Some will say that it existed for a brief moment in the 90s-2000s. Back then, most countries played nice with the international treaties even if there were no penalties for noncompliance, right? No - it just appeared that way. The 90s and 2000s were a unipolar world, the peak of the American Empire, and America made it emine…

Some will say that it existed for a brief moment in the 90s-2000s. So were the Nuremberg Trials not an instance of the RBWO? (And all the UN mediations in e.g. Palestine, Korea, etc. from its very founding)

The UN mediation and general work in Palestine was objectively a failure.

Korea... it preserved South Korea's dictator in power, which allowed for a modern democratic and prosperous South Korea to happen. Back then it was little more than protecting the US-backed dictator against the Soviets-backed one. Both were pretty terrible and murderous.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#932

Post by djyaz1200 »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #545
djyaz1200 wrote: post #526

[flagged]

I generally agree with this take. The big problem with it is that the current and likely future israeli administrion(s) have as one of their largest goals the annexation of the west bank, not because of security but because they truly believe god gave them that land. IMO there is little reason to believe israelis will ever allow the palestinians full sovereignty in the west bank. So whats on the table for them in you…

Helpful, thank you for sharing.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#933

Post by djyaz1200 »

megous wrote: post #539
djyaz1200 wrote: post #526

[flagged]

Are you asking why 5 million people don't just accept total subjugation to Israel and renounce all desire for self-determination as a nation? Let themselves be subjugated to permanent occupation and political persecution? All in all to a state that rejects Palestinian right to ever try Israelis for any and all crimes they do to them, including war crimes and crimes against humanity? (that's what even several EU state…

I don't think Israel is innocent by any means, their hands are dirty here obviously.

I'm just trying to think out loud about a different way forward, and I tried to highlight my bias.

I haven't seen a serious plan put forward for peace, and maybe the problem is not solvable.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#934

Post by anon291 »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #756
anon291 wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was never a 'rules-based world order'. We live purely in Pax Americana and every government exists at the pleasure of the United States. If the US wanted to, and if it did it correctly, it could easily conquer most countries. Afghanistan happened because America lost the will, not the ability. Had America gone the normal colonial route, Afghanistan would look a lot different today.

Yes. However, Pax Americana did, at least initially, at least give semblance of established rules working. Now even that pretense is gone. Eh. No. I am not sure where the concept this weird concept of 'bombing them to nothing did not help; we probably need to bomb them some more' comes from. I accept your premise that some of it is the question of will, but you have to admit that two decades with nothing to show for…

> bombing them to nothing did not help; we probably need to bomb them some more' comes from.

To be clear, bombing is not colonizing. Colonizing entails undoing the current culture and replacing it with your own. You don't replace culture with bombs, but rather by taking the young people, educating them in America, and then shipping them back a la Britain (among other things). You have to do this for several decades, or maybe even a century, maybe multiple centuries.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#935

Post by aguaviva »

sofixa wrote: post #931
aguaviva wrote: post #899

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some will say that it existed for a brief moment in the 90s-2000s. So were the Nuremberg Trials not an instance of the RBWO? (And all the UN mediations in e.g. Palestine, Korea, etc. from its very founding)

The UN mediation and general work in Palestine was objectively a failure. Korea... it preserved South Korea's dictator in power, which allowed for a modern democratic and prosperous South Korea to happen. Back then it was little more than protecting the US-backed dictator against the Soviets-backed one. Both were pretty terrible and murderous.

In regard to Korea -- it was also about the principle of maintaining recognized borders, and their involiability. The UN was also instrumental in bringing the conflict to an end (along with Stalin's death and the general state of exhaustion on both sides -- but nonetheless, it was instrumental). And yes, they were both awful dictatorships at the time (and the South would continue to be, for decades to come) -- but's also not like there isn't a considerable difference between the two societies, now, generations later.

Palestine - many failures, but there've also been many important resolutions that have kept the conflict (at least somewhat) framed in terms of the RBWO and the rights of the region's indigenous inhabitants.

We also have the Geneva Conventions, etc.

So in sum - yes, many failures, but on balance I see the glass as more half-full than half-empty, on this issue.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#936

Post by busterarm »

newspaper1 wrote: post #271
1024core wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they should cooperate with the ICC. Have your day in court and show how absurd the accusations are There's a reason why the US does not recognize the ICC.

Yes, because they want to operate outside the rule of international law.

The only law is what you have the capability to enforce.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#937

Post by busterarm »

bpodgursky wrote: post #524
newspaper1 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because they want to operate outside the rule of international law.

For international law to "rule" over anything, it should start by having an enforcement arm that isn't 98% the US military.

Or can't be overruled with the veto power of the 5 permanent member states.

"International Law" is a joke if China, Russia, France, UK, and US can unilaterally decide not to enforce it.

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#938

Post by Yeul »

This leads to a bit of a conundrum for the Netherlands. It is the home of the ICC and officially a big sponsor of international justice. But also the right wing government has a hard on for Israel. I don't think that our esteemed ancestors ever envisioned white people to end up in court...

The leader of the PVV (biggest political party) is going to visit colonial settlers in Israël.

Many immigrants hate Israel.

Official state policy is a two state solution.

The relocation of the Dutch embassy to Jerusalem.

You could make a Netflix TV show about this. May we all live interesting times!

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#939

Post by [deleted] »

nabla9 wrote: post #12

(before you jump into discussion, remember that this only about these two individuals) ICC and the prosecutor are on very solid ground here. The prosecutor asked opinions from a impartial panel of experts in international law. The panel included people like Theodor Meron (former Legal adviser for the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs), Helene Kennedy, Adrian Fulford. Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant provided plenty of ev…

[deleted]

Re: ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials

#940

Post by jki275 »

edanm wrote: post #663
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? It's clear that the most powerful militaries in the world (US, Russia, essentially China too) have declared the "rules-based world order" dead. Does it do anyone any good to pretend this hasn't happened? It reminded me of the post Elizabeth Warren…

> My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants? Absolutely this matters. This effectively limits where Netanyahu and Gallant can travel to. That's a big deal for a head of state. It sends a signal to all of Europe to be wary of doing business with Israel, which is a big deal. We also don't kno…

What this really does is remove the ICC's authority.

It's one of those things -- if you make up rules and then can't enforce them, pretty soon no one cares what you say about anything.

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