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Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

cnn.com

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Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#931

Post by trmaker103 »

fatbird wrote: post #848
loandbehold wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is responsible but not alone. This war could have been prevented by not pushing Ukraine into NATO. It's THE reason for the war.

Ukraine wasn't a candidate for NATO membership in 2014 or 2022, and this was agreed to in all major treaties/agreements with Russia. It's still not a candidate, and can't be while it's actively engaged in war. NATO membership has never had anything to do with it. Note how Finland has joined NATO since 2022, and faces no repercussions from Russia, despite a third of their land-based nuclear missiles within 400 km of t…

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Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#932

Post by YZF »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #904
YZF wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin would not be where he is without the support of China. And China has plenty of levers that the west can press without needing to do sabotage or war. 15% of China's exports go the US. EU another 15% or so. The west won the cold war without firing a shot or blowing any bridges or sinking any ships. I do agree Putin will change course if he feels he can lose power but it's not clear how pressure on Russia leads to…

Despite all the shifts in China and in Chinese-Western relations in the last 10 years it remains the fact that the thing China cares about the most is commerce. If the spice stops flowing because of international warfare, China will not be happy. Which is why I think it's insane that both US political parties have made "trade war with China" a major policy plank. I think the CCP is as awful as the next person, but cu…

China has had to face no consequences for their support of Russia. What I'm saying isn't about trade war with China. It's about world order. Not that the "western" world order is ideal but it's way better than Russia or China's ideas for world order.

If what you say is true then there should be no problem with China to stop supplying Russia in return for the west not cutting a similar amount of trade with them. However I think you'll be surprised to find there are things that China cares about more than commerce.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#933

Post by UltraSane »

amelius wrote: post #885
UltraSane wrote: post #878

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was almost certainly used.

What was the response?

They now the distance to the break from one end. They then use that with a map of the cable to determine the lat and long of the break and send a ship to fix it.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#934

Post by throwaway290 »

holowoodman wrote: post #876
throwaway290 wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget how Germany's exports of chips and machinery to places like Kyrgyzstan skyrocketed since the invasion. > Exports of motor vehicles and motor vehicle parts to Kyrgyzstan grew particularly strongly in the first quarter, soaring more than 4,000% from a very small base to over 84 million euros... That came after a six-fold rise in German exports to Kyrgyzstan last year following Russia's February 2022 invasi…

Half of Germany was, for roughly 4 decades, a soviet puppet state. With indoctrination programs, propaganda towards the western part, cadre schools, the whole deal. And even in West Germany the soviets always had a lot of support, especially in the burgeoise (yes, the irony...) upper layers of society. Socialism and communism weren't just invented here out of thin air and such. This means that a good part of especial…

I always ask Germans which side of the wall they are from, it seems like East Germans are a bit more disillusioned or realistic but people from West parts can be ardent supporters of Putin

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#935

Post by fatbird »

trmaker103 wrote: post #931
fatbird wrote: post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine wasn't a candidate for NATO membership in 2014 or 2022, and this was agreed to in all major treaties/agreements with Russia. It's still not a candidate, and can't be while it's actively engaged in war. NATO membership has never had anything to do with it. Note how Finland has joined NATO since 2022, and faces no repercussions from Russia, despite a third of their land-based nuclear missiles within 400 km of t…

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Did you read your own link?

Although Russia has obstinately described NATO expansion as a threat, Putin was actually more concerned about the loss of Russia’s perceived sphere of influence in former Soviet republics which were aligning themselves with the West economically and politically

So it wasn’t about NATO, it was about maintained a decaying sphere of influence.

Boris Bondarev, a Russian diplomat who later resigned in protest of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, recalled that the draft treaties had shocked many Russian diplomats and that he immediately viewed the demands as non-negotiable.

Even the Russian diplomats knew it was posturing while Russia added to the 100,000 troops already staging on the border with Ukraine. Demands made at the point of 100,000 guns pointed at you are not good faith negotiating positions.

What right does Russia have to formalized neutrality, to control Ukraine’s foreign policy? Do you think that, since “Germany is just a vassal state” that Russia deserves one too?

[ETA: formatting]

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#936

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

trmaker103 wrote: post #931
fatbird wrote: post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine wasn't a candidate for NATO membership in 2014 or 2022, and this was agreed to in all major treaties/agreements with Russia. It's still not a candidate, and can't be while it's actively engaged in war. NATO membership has never had anything to do with it. Note how Finland has joined NATO since 2022, and faces no repercussions from Russia, despite a third of their land-based nuclear missiles within 400 km of t…

[flagged]

Ukraine has as much right to a neutral russia, as russia has to a neutral Ukraine. What has russia done to deserve more?

Indeed, russia started this war by refusing to be neutral. Thus, Ukraine will perhaps show neutrality if russia shows neutrality first.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#937

Post by deanCommie »

immibis wrote: post #928
deanCommie wrote: post #919

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your profile says you're in Lithuania. Lithuania is part of NATO. IF this was an officially sanctioned mission by a NATO country, then you're part of the "we". That's kind of the deal with alliances.

Hello Mr Internet Research Agency employee, A random Lithuanian person is not Germany. Hope this helps.

So long as we live in democracies, we are responsible for the actions of our governments.

You can certainly go "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos" during domestic discussions of displeasure of the ruling party. But, in international affairs, we are accountable for our government's foreign policies.

I'm Canadian. "We" are in a proxy war with Russia. "We" need to win lest Putin thinks he can just take sovereign nations like Ukraine without the rest of the world stopping him.

Appeasing dictators is a losing policy. "We" need to do everything possible by having Europe fund Ukraine, and now while "We" have Biden agreeing to do so, until Trump takes over and "we" have infighting between NATO nations about what to do about Ukraine.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#938

Post by blub »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #908
blub wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, in the real world Germany is de-industrializing because of the high energy prices and competition from China and US.

The entire west has been deindustrializing for the last 30 years.

Besides the short-sighted beancounter China outsourcing, Germany had a healthy industry.

That’s notably shrinking with no clear path to recovery.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#939

Post by oneshtein »

coffeebeqn wrote: post #906
oneshtein wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RF has no air supremacy in Ukraine, so they have high loses, but they advance anyway. Small or large losses will not stop an empire, except Imperial Japan maybe.

Ukraines Air Force is tiny and poorly equipped. Compare it to just the Nordics for example who are soon on hundreds of F-35 and Gripen. Staging any mass movements against that kind of air support will be challenging. Besides NATO already has a large land based army as well. US, Turkey, Poland , Finland all have large ground forces

As I said, RF has no air supremacy already. They have high loses because of that. They accept their losses and move forward.

Similar tactics was used by communists in Vietnam and Korea.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#940

Post by oneshtein »

coffeebeqn wrote: post #898
oneshtein wrote: post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slovakia or Hungary, for example.

They are both in NATO

This doesn't mean that they will invoke Article 5.

Multiple NATO countries should invoke Article 4 of NATO already, but they don't.

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