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Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#931

Post by tptacek »

rendall wrote: post #930
tptacek wrote: post #922

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way does this conversation get better if we get into that?

Perhaps I learn something new, of which I was not previously aware. Or, in articulating it, you do? It's possible we each have information the other does not.

On any other topic maybe, but here the risks seem to outweigh the rewards. By all means, if I said something you disagree with, say so, and I'll read and maybe respond. Maybe I'll be persuaded, and maybe I won't. But for what I think are obvious reasons I am reluctant to expand the scope of this discussion.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#932

Post by Qem »

hellojesus wrote: post #924
incognos wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a terrorist group? The nation state you are referring to is an occupying colonialist state. This same "state" is an apartheid state and not a democracy. You just have to scratch a little under the surface to see it. The nightly raids in the west bank. The concentration camp referred to as Gaza - where this "state" controls all utilities and imports. Hold anyone under your thumb for long enough and they will…

Slaughtering a bunch of dancers at a festival seems congruent with terrorism to me. Your argument seems to be: it's okay to do terrorist things if someone makes you. But that's still terrorism.

> Slaughtering a bunch of dancers at a festival seems congruent with terrorism to me.

There's evidence many of them were killed by friendly fire, to avoid capture and the need for hostage swaps. See:

https://thecradle.co/articles-id/18526

https://www.oct7factcheck.com/oct7factcheck/Friendly-fire-Is...

https://w.ynet.co.il/yediot/7-days/time-of-darkness

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#933

Post by LAC-Tech »

rendall wrote: post #908
LAC-Tech wrote: post #882

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it's a wildy disproportionate military operation. Israeli lives are not worth 40x Palestinian ones.

Why does this, relatively speaking, extremely low rate of civilian casualties concern you so? Honest question. Have you been similarly concerned by the extremely high rates of ongoing civilian casualties in Syria, Sudan, and Yemen? Those of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Do you believe Israelis and non-Israelis are equal? Is the life of a Palestinian worth that of an Israeli?

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#934

Post by nsguy »

GordonS wrote: post #595
nsguy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has ordered hospitals to evacuate, e.g.: https://healthpolicy-watch.news/who-calls-for-israel-to-resc... I think you're generally wrong on the "they have not been doing" comment. Israel has been giving warnings, and those warnings were intentionally being ignored to maximize the damage to Israel's reputation. But if you have some comprehensive data here I'd be interested in seeing it. From my observation the p…

> Israel did demand that the entirety of Northern Gaza be evacuated from civilians Yes, they have repeatedly dropped leaflets telling civilians to move to "safe" areas - and have repeatedly proceeded to bomb those areas. > including those "camps" you mention Like the one where an Israeli tank drove over inhabited tents?

Israel has bombed the designated safe areas significantly less than the other areas. This is fact. It also never promised not to bomb them and has consistently said that it will go after military targets in those areas as well. This is also fact. Israel has every right to do so according to international law. Israel's intention was to move civilians out of areas that are going to see heavier/intense fighting as the IDF moves to take them over on the ground.

Palestinian propaganda repeats this first point, it's not in good faith.

I'm not familiar with the second incident you're mentioning but I'm sure in any major war there will be plenty of examples of "things that are really bad". E.g. in the Ukraine-Russia war summary executions of surrendering soldiers, intentional bombing of civilians, are things that happen a lot and don't make the news. Give me one example of a major war where these things don't happen. For a western country the answer should be that these incidents should be investigated and the individuals punished. I think that rarely happens (e.g. you're not going to find many incidents of US soldiers, or "private security contractors", punished in the various wars the US engaged with). We should still strive for that. I'm pretty sure the IDF command does not order tanks to run over civilians, that is not policy, quite the opposite.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#935

Post by nsguy »

rakoo wrote: post #544
nsguy wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less of a context than your political position or opinion. I think it's also at the very least naive and simplistic. As one example, those checkpoints you're describing did not exist before terrorism such as suicide bombers and other indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians. They also do not exist in Gaza. I'm finding it hard to follow the rest of your analogy. My context is that Israel withdrew from Gaza in…

And I can also say that your view is less context than a personal biased view on the situation. Mixing up Hamas and Palestinians as if they're all the same. Excusing Israel's response as just and proportionate, meaning that shelling entire neighborhoods, sniping people left and right, shooting at an ambulance are somehow fighting terrorism. Saying on all platforms that the goal is to "exterminate animals", from the h…

I think we do agree given your last sentence. I'll sign on to that.

On the details of the history this wasn't "my country come to your land and forced you to leave" it was more like "Jewish people immigrated to this region, their historic homeland, many expelled from their homes in Europe and the middle east and had no options" (compare e.g. to Chinese people from Hong Kong immigrating to Canada) and "war started by the Arab countries against the UN recognized state of Israel led to 700,000 Palestinians refugees" (I'd compare to millions of German refugees in Europe post their loss in WW-II). Jewish immigration to the region was legal and should be viewed as moral on many levels. If the Arab population were to look at it as the positive that it could have been then we'd all be living happily ever after in a prosperous middle east. If anything millions of Jews could have been saved in WW-II if Britain were to allow more of them to immigrate- that was immoral. The Arabs had, and still do, see this as a (racist) zero sum game, not a win-win (vs. how Canada looks at immigration again e.g.). Read Israel's declaration of independence to see how Israel's leadership looked at it (and keep in mind this was 1948!).

The settlements are a tricky topic. I'm opposed to them and the settlers. But this is not what most people talk about when they say Israel is a colonist. What most people mean is the existence of the state of Israel is the "settlement". That's their political perspective and IMO both racist and a distortion of history.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#936

Post by nsguy »

incognos wrote: post #554
rakoo wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what if Russia had been colonizing Scotland, then Wales, then half of England, only left disjointed pockets of UK residents not allowed to vote, being watched 24/7, being beaten, harassed and killed by settlers under the watch of Russian army, and then being beaten when going to the funeral of their dead, being robbed of their natural resources, having to go through checkpoints to see their family, London being h…

I wonder if Sir William Wallace, a.k.a. Braveheart, would be considered a Terrorist or a Freedom Fighter. When England invaded and occupied and imposed ridiculous rules on them, should they have not fought back? How about the Potato Famine, how many of you know that this was caused by England INTENTIONALLY by shipping all the food out of Ireland to England. is Sinn Fein a terrorist group still? or were they so named…

I'm not familiar at all with these stories. I should read about them.

I think there's a fairly clear delineation between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. A terrorist's goal is to sow terror among the target entity. It does so by random indiscriminate violence (and barbarism). The more random the target is and the more barbaric the attack is the better. 9/11 is a good example. A terrorist has no moral qualms. The goal justifies anything. It's almost certain that the terrorist is losing in any measurable objective. E.g. the Chechen attacks in Moscow leading to Russia essentially levelling Chechnia, or the Sri Lankans destroying the Tamils. It's kind of a lost cause made worse by violence.

A freedom fighter, to contrast, will weigh the morality of their actions vs. what they can accomplish and other non-violent alternatives. They will weigh the violence they use, their targets, against specific "freedom" goals. They will not sacrifice their own humanity to pursue their goal. They have some reasonable chance of achieving some real "freedom" goals out of the targeted acts of violence. WW-II Partisans come to mind.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#937

Post by rendall »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #933
rendall wrote: post #908

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does this, relatively speaking, extremely low rate of civilian casualties concern you so? Honest question. Have you been similarly concerned by the extremely high rates of ongoing civilian casualties in Syria, Sudan, and Yemen? Those of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Do you believe Israelis and non-Israelis are equal? Is the life of a Palestinian worth that of an Israeli?

Of course, generally speaking. If that Palestinian is Hamas or Islamic Jihad or other terrorist, no.

My question was genuine. Are you as outraged over the deaths of the collective over 1M Syrians, Yemeni and Sudanese civilians as you are about the 10-30k Gazans?

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#938

Post by rendall »

tptacek wrote: post #931
rendall wrote: post #930

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I learn something new, of which I was not previously aware. Or, in articulating it, you do? It's possible we each have information the other does not.

On any other topic maybe, but here the risks seem to outweigh the rewards. By all means, if I said something you disagree with, say so, and I'll read and maybe respond. Maybe I'll be persuaded, and maybe I won't. But for what I think are obvious reasons I am reluctant to expand the scope of this discussion.

I'm not trying to provoke trouble. Just trying to understand what you meant. I do not believe that Israel is actually committing war crimes. I've seen no credible evidence for it. I have seen lots of evidence of war crime by Hamas by contrast.

I'm not pro Israel because they are my "favorite team" or "preferred fandom". If Israel or any batik. I am pro Israel because, of the two competing narratives, theirs makes the most rational sense, and I do not ever hear rational rebuttals. Like never. If you have one, that'd be great. I mean, it would suck, but I wouldn't dismiss it. But you would be unique. I only ever hear debunked accusations rotated with diversion, whatabouts, non-sequitur, threats and counter accusations.

Never, for instance, a rational answer to why people just accept Hamas' death toll without any skepticism. In fact, apparently the thread has been flagged. Still no direct response, though.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#939

Post by nsguy »

incognos wrote: post #548
nsguy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has ordered hospitals to evacuate, e.g.: https://healthpolicy-watch.news/who-calls-for-israel-to-resc... I think you're generally wrong on the "they have not been doing" comment. Israel has been giving warnings, and those warnings were intentionally being ignored to maximize the damage to Israel's reputation. But if you have some comprehensive data here I'd be interested in seeing it. From my observation the p…

What you have neglected is history. The last time Israel pushed people out of their homes, they were not allowed to return. This fact is seared into the memory of every Palestinian for generations. They carry the keys to their original homes to this day. So forgive them for not wanting to abandon their only homes because they want to kill people they have been abusing for decades. Please read your history prior to ma…

The Palestinians have their own version of history which let's just say is inaccurate. One example is they underplay the seriousness of the Arab attack on Israel in 1948 and things like the Egyptian air force bombing Tel-Aviv seem to evaporate from their version of events. They also tend to completely forget about their collaboration with Nazi Germany and the numerous attacks against Jews pre-1948. Really history in the sense of "his story". You can argue Israelis also do this, which is probably correct, but I think you'll find more diverse views in Israeli society and more access to facts. In fact many Palestinians use Israeli historians as their reference (while conveniently not pointing out what parts of their claims are still under debate/disagreement).

It's true that some people were forced to leave after the Arabs started a war on Israel in 1948 and those people generally weren't allowed back. It's also true that many people chose to leave and also weren't allowed back. That said your logic makes no sense to anyone with western values IMO. Your life is more important than your property. I.e. between the option of staying in your property and dying and leaving and not dying the choice for most people in the west is clear. It's true that if they leave they may not be allowed to return. We can argue about the morality of that given they started this current war as well. I think in practice Gazans will be allowed to go back, but time will tell and events will transpire. If anything in practice leaving their homes to allow Israel to focus on Hamas would have likely shortened the war and increased their chances of getting back home and to normality sooner.

I can't really follow your logic who is wanting to kill who and who has been abusing who.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#940

Post by tptacek »

rendall wrote: post #938
tptacek wrote: post #931

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On any other topic maybe, but here the risks seem to outweigh the rewards. By all means, if I said something you disagree with, say so, and I'll read and maybe respond. Maybe I'll be persuaded, and maybe I won't. But for what I think are obvious reasons I am reluctant to expand the scope of this discussion.

I'm not trying to provoke trouble. Just trying to understand what you meant. I do not believe that Israel is actually committing war crimes. I've seen no credible evidence for it. I have seen lots of evidence of war crime by Hamas by contrast. I'm not pro Israel because they are my "favorite team" or "preferred fandom". If Israel or any batik. I am pro Israel because, of the two competing narratives, theirs makes the…

I don't think I'm a good foil for this argument. But that's fine, we don't have to argue!
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