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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#931

Post by jonathanstrange »

magic123_ wrote: post #918
jonathanstrange wrote: post #884

Flagging this submission should lead to its removal. I'm very disappointed that HN allows political topics now. It's well-known that discussion of one-sided articles like this one doesn't lead to good discussions. It's clearly political, and, even worse, based on a one-sided submission pointing to Al Jazeera, which is driven by ideology and known for publishing way more radical articles in Arabic than in English. The…

So the logic here is, because 80% of a population living in an open air prison for several decades support attacks on the people oppressing them, they deserve to be tortured?

What a weird way to misinterpret what I've stated. Of course, I'm against torturing people, even if they support burning whole families alive, kidnapping children and elderly, raping women, shooting parents in front of their children, etc.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#932

Post by wahnfrieden »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #884

Flagging this submission should lead to its removal. I'm very disappointed that HN allows political topics now. It's well-known that discussion of one-sided articles like this one doesn't lead to good discussions. It's clearly political, and, even worse, based on a one-sided submission pointing to Al Jazeera, which is driven by ideology and known for publishing way more radical articles in Arabic than in English. The…

Politics threads are common here and allowed. I see several right now on the front page.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#933

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

If we're gonna have a curious conversation I must say that I don't understand the distinction between civlians and non-civilians (combatants?).

Isn't the whole point of war to kill the enemy's civilians and destroy their infrastructure, so that their nation can't support a standing army to defend whatever natural resources the attacker wants in the first place?

I wonder if there is any example from history, modern and not, where an invading army simply disabled the inveded nation's standing army and then just ... turned around left.

Or if there is any example where a nation was occupied and the civilian population did _not_ take arms, meaning that at least some of the civilians turned into combatants.

In the end, I don't get the logic of giving different status to civilians and combatants, in war. If it's illegal to kill enemy civilians, then it should be illegal to kill enemy combatants, too. After all, why should we value the combatants' lives less?

Of course, making it illegal to kill enemy combatants would effectively make war illegal. Well, yes. I can't see how war can still be legal in the current stage of our civilisation. I don't understand how we can still accept that some of us will kill others, destroy their homes and take their stuff. I don't understand how that can be seen as ethical, let alone legal.

"Dispense with the war, learn from the past" - Sodom, Ausgebombt.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#934

Post by jonathanstrange »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #932
jonathanstrange wrote: post #884

Flagging this submission should lead to its removal. I'm very disappointed that HN allows political topics now. It's well-known that discussion of one-sided articles like this one doesn't lead to good discussions. It's clearly political, and, even worse, based on a one-sided submission pointing to Al Jazeera, which is driven by ideology and known for publishing way more radical articles in Arabic than in English. The…

Politics threads are common here and allowed. I see several right now on the front page.

To quote HN's guidelines: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic."

That's not the complaint, though, me and many others are complaining that flagging that particular story seems to have been overridden manually, since it's almost certain that the story has been flagged very often. I surely have flagged it because of the above guideline, and many similar stories have been flagged and removed in the past. Luckily. HN is not the right medium for discussions of such topics. It's sad that Dang chose the most flamebait topic possible for an already dubious experiment.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#935

Post by wahnfrieden »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #934
wahnfrieden wrote: post #932

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics threads are common here and allowed. I see several right now on the front page.

To quote HN's guidelines: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." That's not the complaint, though, me and many others are complaining that flagging that particular story seems to have been overridden manua…

HN moderators do often protect legitimate threads against flag-brigades. HN is the right medium for those topics circumstantially, as the rule says, and as reported by moderator. Please stop pretending to be an authority on rules out of your personal displeasure. I don't appreciate being called out for rule-breaking when moderation has clarified that it is acceptable per standards.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#936

Post by cassepipe »

amluto wrote: post #481
theautist wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So Israel’s military operation is contemporaneous with a threat, and does at least serve some degree of self-defense purpose There really is no self-defense purpose in my mind to what Israel is doing. It's more self-avenging as others mentioned. You can argue it's a preventative operation to prevent future attack by taking out Hamas, but the approach they're taking does not indicate that since it's completely counte…

> There really is no self-defense purpose in my mind to what Israel is doing. It's more self-avenging as others mentioned. > You can argue it's a preventative operation to prevent future attack by taking out Hamas, but the approach they're taking does not indicate that since it's completely counter-productive and Israel must know that. dang has asked us to engage in thoughtful, curious conversation, and absolutes lik…

Thanks for challenging my take and for trying to keep the thread focused. Your response was the only one that did not derailed in some way or other.

Back to your response :

Is it the case that Hamas kept on going full on rockets after all the terrorists they sent were killed ? I am asking because they were already launching rockets before and Israel did not invade Gaza and instead relied on the Iron Dome and somewhat targeted strikes. I think it matters because it would make the difference between defense and vengeance.

Some people are asking what I think Israel should have done. It's a hard path but I think they should have remained in the role of blatant victim and appeal to the international community to pressure for the release of hostages. Now you can argue that the other side is crazy and justify a hard stance in the eyes of the world. The dead are already dead and engaging in pointless counterinsurgency wars will make you look bad while achieving nothing but maybe endangering the life of hostages. But hey maybe I am deluded who knows.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#937

Post by biorach »

ejb999 wrote: post #474
acdha wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However supportive of Israel one may be and how repulsed one should be by Hamas, I'd say that we should not fool ourselves in that the military operation in Gaza is Israel defending itself ("Israel's right to defend itself" is now a commonplace phrase) rather than avenging itself. I’ve felt that as well, and I would add that even if you feel every action is justified I am skeptical that it’s not counterproductive.…

>>Each civilian killed by mistake has family, friends, and neighbors who might be inclined to avenge them and it’s hard for me to see how this doesn’t end up giving Hamas more recruits than they’re losing. Both Japan and Germany have been pretty well behaved since the Allies ground them to the dust during WW2 - why do you think it couldn't work here?

> Japan and Germany have been pretty well behaved since the Allies ground them to the dust during WW2 - why do you think it couldn't work here?

The grinding into dust was a small part of the reason for the successful outcome

The main victor in WWII poured vast resources into rebuilding the economies of Germany and Japan, ensured their viability as nation states, fostered democracy and encouraged the creation of an environment fostering equality, cooperation and growth. This all ensured residual bitterness was overcome relatively quickly.

Israel so far has done very much the opposite to the Palestinians. The prospects for long term peace look grim without a more magnanimous victor.

The West Bank is every year more decimated by settlements with Palestinians forced into tighter and tighter enclaves. This is not a recipe for long term peace

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#938

Post by jonathanstrange »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #935
jonathanstrange wrote: post #934

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quote HN's guidelines: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." That's not the complaint, though, me and many others are complaining that flagging that particular story seems to have been overridden manua…

HN moderators do often protect legitimate threads against flag-brigades. HN is the right medium for those topics circumstantially, as the rule says, and as reported by moderator. Please stop pretending to be an authority on rules out of your personal displeasure. I don't appreciate being called out for rule-breaking when moderation has clarified that it is acceptable per standards.

It's just the personal opinion of one moderator, contradicting published rules, and I disagree with the decision and your opinions about it. It's ruining everything I like about HN, and I don't want another social medium going down the drain after the /. debacle.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#939

Post by dang »

tsimionescu wrote: post #453
nahumfarchi wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think that is a reasonable take at all. 1. This is warfare, not civil law. Hamas, which is the sovereign in Gaza (there has been no Israeli military presence there for years), commited an act of war in which hundreds were killed, raped, and kidnapped. Israel, as a state, has the moral duty to fight back and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, it breaks the most basic contract between citizen an…

You seem to be arguing from a bizarre perspective that Israel is the defender here. In reality, Israel is the aggressor, and Palestine is the state that has been under occupation and illegal blockade for decades. October 7th was an (illegal, abhorrent and criminal!) act of retaliation against previous Israeli aggressions, not an unprovoked attack. If Ukraine were to bomb a Russian city during the current war, no one…

> You seem to be arguing from a bizarre perspective

This sort of swipe is against the spirit of the HN guidelines and particularly the spirit we asked commenters in this thread to keep. Please don't do this.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#940

Post by s1artibartfast »

tsimionescu wrote: post #873
s1artibartfast wrote: post #787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In general, the overall solution would be for Israel to allow Palestine to be an independent state, recognized in the UN, with full control of its own borders. What would be the solution of that independent state went to war and attacked Israel again? Would you agree at that juncture that Israel would be within its rights to destroy and conquer that state?

No, there is no allowance in international law for conquering and destroying a state. If you are attacked by a different state, you obviously have the full right to defend yourself and destroy the military installations used to attack you. You have a right to attack back and seek regime change and impose terms that ensure another attack can't happen, and even seek reparations. But you do not have the right to attack…

I think the compairison to Japan and Germany is interesting, although there are obvious differences.

Both Japan and Germany had major civil cities leveled and gave unconditional surrender in WWII, and were occupied.

Germany was stripped of its sovereignty and former statehood. It was administered by the allies for 5 years and permanently lost 25% of its territory (compared to its 1937 pre-war borders.) It took 25 years post WWII for Germany to be admitted to the UN.

Japan was Occupied and administered by US military for 7 years following the war, and parts of the Japanese home islands are still administered 70 years later. Japan Lost multiple territories it had held for more than 60 years before WWII started.

I think that what we learned from WWII and subsequent wars that you need unconditional surrender and acceptance for any real nation building to take place.

Perhaps Palestine needs their equivalent to Germany's first post-war chancellor Konrad Adenauer, who accepted that Germany lost, and was willing look forward and not back.

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