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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

theatlantic.com

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#931
post #450
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn’t, but the police force stopped enforcing those laws, generally in response to defunding or threats of defunding. The police forces in these cities are in the majority comprised of individuals who live outside of the city and commute to perform enforcement in an area they don’t want to live in. This is the difference that never translated between the Black Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter/Thin Blue Line g…

> generally in response to defunding or threats of defunding. No, it's in response to the DA not prosecuting - what's the point of arresting if nothing happens afterward?

This is also true, but I would suggest it is also not the whole picture. Within the relevant timeframe the DA typically declined to prosecute things the police force believed were important, such as protests that included violence or threats of violence. In response, the police force stopped arresting people for all manner of crimes that the DA would still prosecute.

Perhaps best framed as a three- or four-way disconnect among the citizens, politicians, the judicial branch, and law enforcement.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#932
post #885

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its fucking wild that folks are advocating shame as a method for dealing with drug addiction in the year 2023. As if shame isn't one of the major contributing factors to the crippling opioid crisis to begin with. An astonishingly large number of people got hooked on legal prescription drugs which were pushed by billion-dollar pharma companies and the medical profession as a whole. Shame is what drives people away fro…

Yeah, this shame angle is offensive. My 80 year mom, who was strongly against drugs, died an addict because the pharm industry got her hooked on pain killers. Because of shame, her kids didn’t even know until she was an addict until she was almost dead.

This is shockingly common in the aging population, and no one really thinks to look at Grandma baking cookies as a potential addict quietly suffering

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#933

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Several states have legalized marijuana, and surprise, marijuana usage is at an all-time high That may be a result of measurement. People that used prior to legalization kept it secret. The stereotypical "stoners" are a fraction of cannabis users. After legalization people tend to be more open about their cannabis use. If the measurement is based on surveys there will be an obvious increase after legalization as th…

> If the measurement is based on sales there will also be an obvious increase after legalization as the majority of sales are recorded. This may be true, but it’s the best measuring that we have. I don’t know if it’s worth throwing out the existing measures we have from before and after legalization on a hunch that it might be different results. The surveys try to account for this as much as they can. I agree that pe…

It has proven untenable to treat this with law enforcement. It's too susceptible to bias, and creates a large class of people labeled as "criminals" the rest of their lives. It demonstrates an incredible lack of imagination that a large percentage of Americans can't see any way to handle this other than making things illegal, especially when we have a clear analog with alcohol.

If most people can handle having alcohol readily available, then those same people should be able to have other drugs readily available.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#934

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its fucking wild that folks are advocating shame as a method for dealing with drug addiction in the year 2023. As if shame isn't one of the major contributing factors to the crippling opioid crisis to begin with. An astonishingly large number of people got hooked on legal prescription drugs which were pushed by billion-dollar pharma companies and the medical profession as a whole. Shame is what drives people away fro…

For an example of how shame can be useful in discouraging bad choices, look at cigarettes. They're legal, but society and government have successfully campaigned to publicize their negative effects, to shame smokers and to praise quitters.

> They’re legal, but society and government have successfully campaigned to publicize their negative effects, to shame smokers and to praise quitters.

I dunno, seems to me the effective thing wasn’t “shame”, but:

(1) Making it progressively more difficult for tobacco companies to recruit new customers by prohibiting many forms of advertising/marketing and forcing countermarketing about harms to be included in what marketing (including product packaging) is allowed, and

(2) Driving up costs with targeted taxes, and

(3) Prohibiting smoking in most workplaces and other public places, limiting environmental exposure to the addictive substances for people not actively choosing to participate and narrowing the contexts where people who do choose to partake are permitted to do so.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#935
post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

Its fucking wild that folks are advocating shame as a method for dealing with drug addiction in the year 2023. As if shame isn't one of the major contributing factors to the crippling opioid crisis to begin with. An astonishingly large number of people got hooked on legal prescription drugs which were pushed by billion-dollar pharma companies and the medical profession as a whole. Shame is what drives people away fro…

> Its fucking wild that folks are advocating shame as a method for dealing with drug addiction in the year 2023.

It's also extremely divorced from reality. Even if you've never met an addict and seen how many want to get off the drugs (maybe you've met someone who is addicted to something else, like food, alcohol, or bad habits), but that the very fact that people don't flaunt it is proof of that shame. Now maybe some are unabashed now, especially in big cities, but similarly if you call someone "a fatty" enough they'll either: fix themselves (lol), hide their eating while trying to show effort or justify their weight, or just stop giving a fuck.

> people got hooked on legal prescription drugs

I want to address this, not because I think you're making this argument (your wording suggests not), but because it can be common. Many people set up the situation as if there are one of two directional graphs. Drugs -> homelessness or homelessness -> drugs (with variations on paths and some other nodes). But the effect in reality is coupled. Both can be true. It's a clique to drink your sorrows away and everyone knows the call of a stiff drink after a hard breakup or the call to eat a tub of ice cream. Of course losing your livelihood and having difficulties putting it back together can lead to that kind of addiction. But similarly we've seen people go off the deepend and take a bender too far, so of course that can lead to losing your livelihood. Most things in the world are not DAGs. There's lots of complex and coupled phenomena with feedback loops and many paths to reach certain steady state solutions. The danger is oversimplifying it and pretending these are trivial to avoid or trivial to escape. But the nature of their existence is proof of the lack of triviality, while a single counter example is not proof that they are.

Similarly it boggles my mind that a comment about shame is the solution. As if the Victorian times were well known for their safety and high prosperity. As if highly religious cultures have demonstrated exceptional prosperity (Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or whatever). That we're seeing similar comments about punishment, as if North Korea, Russia, and Iran are pinnacles of prosperity, wealth, and morality. How people are unabashedly hand waving away any nuance and pretending that the solutions are simple. But if they were then the examples before would be utopias, and that we'd speak of the many historical draconian eras in high regard.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#936
post #932
post #885

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this shame angle is offensive. My 80 year mom, who was strongly against drugs, died an addict because the pharm industry got her hooked on pain killers. Because of shame, her kids didn’t even know until she was an addict until she was almost dead.

This is shockingly common in the aging population, and no one really thinks to look at Grandma baking cookies as a potential addict quietly suffering

Ironically the shame is what hides this too. The Grandma trying to hide her shameful addiction. The part of her family that takes care of her shamefully hiding it from the rest of the family, for fear that they would not be seen as good care takers despite doing their best. The shame of the others that see it but pretend they don't, because they themselves don't want to admit that grandma is an addict. Justifying it away. No, the junkies on the street are different, they chose that life, but grandma is a victim. While yes, there can be people who made those poor choices, if grandma is a victim, then why should it surprise anyone that there are others. Others who are less fortunate, who's children aren't as responsible and loving as you.

My mom died of cancer in her 40's. My mom also died an addict. Two of her sisters also had cancer, found because of her diagnosis. Both became addicts as well. I don't see how they couldn't have. Chemo is rough. It is a long and painful treatment that we _should_ be giving painkillers to those receiving it. But it is shame that makes it difficult for people to get treatment. It is shame that prevents people from even admitting they need treatment in the first place.

The hard truth is that grandma is an addict and she needs to be unashamed of going to the methadone clinic.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#937

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For an example of how shame can be useful in discouraging bad choices, look at cigarettes. They're legal, but society and government have successfully campaigned to publicize their negative effects, to shame smokers and to praise quitters.

I don't think it's been empirically demonstrated that shame-based public information campaigns contributed to the drop in smoking as much as tax increases, bans in restaurants and other semi-public spaces, and changing preferences (eg, adoption of ecigs and marijuana products). At least for personal health risks like drug addiction or obesity, pretty big mounds of evidence do exist that shame is mostly ineffective fo…

What? You're telling me that you're denying the overwhelming evidence of the success of Nancy Regan's Dare program!? It's overwhelmingly uncommon to see anyone smoking weed, which we know is just a gateway drug to harder things like crack and heroin. Gen Xers and Millennials, who grew up under this program, are overwhelmingly known to be anti-pot and similarly just last week HN cheered about MasterCard's decision to deny service to dispensaries, which are also uncommon and no state would legally allow them. Similarly, you don't see the overwhelming evidence of abstinence based contraception? I mean how many Catholic girls get pregnant? Who needs a coat hanger abortion when you have Jesus? There is undeniable evidence that shame, fear based education, and harsh punishments stop these kinds of immoral behavior. (If for one moment anyone thinks I needed to add a sarcasm tag, please reevaluate your perception of the world. This is as obvious as it gets)

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#938

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For an example of how shame can be useful in discouraging bad choices, look at cigarettes. They're legal, but society and government have successfully campaigned to publicize their negative effects, to shame smokers and to praise quitters.

You're so close . Tobacco companies used to be allowed to actively advertise their product as healthy and employed statisticians and doctors to publish fake science in order to do so. Cracking down on Tobacco advertising has nothing to do with shame . On the other hand, people with a nicotine addiction are encouraged to seek treatment in order to quit. Again, this is the exact opposite of using shame to discourage "b…

I agree that addiction should be treated like a medical issue, but I also think shame plays a role. We're social creatures, after all. Sometimes, the fear of being shamed can deter bad behavior. It's not about using shame to punish addicts, but about recognizing its part in our social dynamics.

Also, I'd suggest a friendlier tone in your discussions. Being condescending can push people away, even if you have great insights. Respectful communication can make a big difference.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#939
post #713
post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

It's difficult for me to overstate how much I disagree with you. I don't need more people being shamed for being gay, for wearing the wrong outfit or for not fitting in. Shame just doesn't work well at a practical level. To say nothing of the superpower that gives the shameless. Meanwhile, I find your alternative of "well if we don't have shame, we'll just have to make explicit laws about it" to be not a bad thing at…

> I don't need more people being shamed for being gay, for wearing the wrong outfit or for not fitting in.

You're introducing these things into a thread about shame and drug usage. It's a complete non-sequitur.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#940
post #614
post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Simply put: fuck the social contract. I didn't sign it. It doesnt get me any benefits, and all it is a whole lot of "costs", all of which are ill defined. All of your "polite" behavior is modified by shame. To use an extreme, contrived, example if you shit on the floor your parents probably shamed you into using the restroom properly. You can, of course, continue to shit on the floor but you also can't act with suc…

Uh, as a person who recently potty trained two people, I did not use shame to teach my kids how to use the toilet. When a child had an accident, we acknowledged it, cleaned up, and moved on. No punishment, no shame.

Did you encourage them or told them not to do it again? If you did the latter, you shamed them using social norms.

People need to feel shame and negative emotions to a degree in order to function in society. You can't simply embrace and reward everything.

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