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There's something off about LED bulbs

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931–940 of 966 posts

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#931

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It's interesting how the led datasheets have all the useful information (spectrum, CRI, angular spread). But once manufacturers put them on a bulb, they will refuse to tell even what leds they used. At this point I believe companies are willfully refusing to inform their customers.

That could be because putting it on the box creates a liability that the LEDs are meeting those specifications -- just because the source LEDs claim to meet those specifications doesn't mean that the enclosure being sold using them as a component will actually produce that. Additionally, any change to LED suppliers/etc now means that the box also has to be changed. In other words, what they are selling isn't the same…

Which means they're selling marginal stuff.

High end museums for example buy bulbs guaranteed to meet their datasheet specs, at a much higher cost of course.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#932

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An important point in the article is that CRI for LED bulbs does not meaningfully map to the light quality. >Oh, but: Experts agree that the color-rendering index doesn’t really index how colors are rendered. Some bulbs with a 90 CRI make things look wan; some with an 80 are passable. There are better, more useful metrics, but you can’t have them. Nobody puts them on the packaging. One lighting professional — an LED…

CRI has to do the hard job of describing a spectrum using a single number. It's like looking at the entire menu of a restaurant and having to say how healthy the food there is. (heck, there's probably way better metaphors).

It does! And it seems that CRI is simply not a useful way to characterize LED light sources, as (i assume) it was established when incandescent and other non-semiconductor light sources were the only option.

To expand your metaphor: it's like judging a dish solely on the balance of flavors while not noticing that the restaurants have started changing the smell of the air, the firmness of the seats, the relative humidity and temperature individually.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#933

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Others have commented, but to reiterate - Older LEDs house bulbs were much worse than newer ones; far more prone to failure from "things". I had many of them fail after only a few months because our power was "flickery" and their power supplies could not handle it. That's _far_ less common now. - The power supply / controller circuitry is not a fan of heat. Don't mount them upside down (so the heat floats up to the c…

I’m sorry, but your solution to bad bulbs is to say “you’re holding/using it wrong.” It’s not my fixtures’ problem. It’s these crappy bulbs.

The bulbs not being suited to certain uses doesn't make them bad bulbs, it makes them more limited. There are bulbs that are good for external use and ones that are not; but that doesn't make the external ones "better", it makes them different. There's tradeoffs. And the tradeoffs for LEDs have gotten better over time, but are still there.

You don't go buy offroad vehicle, then complain it doesn't drive as comfortably on the highway and say it's an objectively worse vehicle. It was designed for a different goal than the 4 door sedan you're comparing it to. It does better at that goal, and worse at others. And, over time, offroad vehicles have gotten better on highways; they'll just never be as good.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#934

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>almost all of them are using their parts, especially capacitors, well above the specs Well, the LEDs themselves will last up to 20 years, so they have to make something in the bulb fail before that. Can't have people only buying replacement bulbs every other decade.

Not sure why you are being downvoted, when that is exactly what has happened with incandescent light bulbs one century ago: > How exactly did the cartel pull off this engineering feat? It wasn’t just a matter of making an inferior or sloppy product; anybody could have done that. But to create one that reliably failed after an agreed-upon 1,000 hours took some doing over a number of years. The household lightbulb in 1…

Though I am generally against planned obsolescence, there are also some arguments -for- planned obsolescence:

https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/technology/innovation/origin...

In some situations you want planned obsolescence, such as in parts which are critical yet should not be used beyond a certain time period (a filter in a medical device) and it is standard practice to design them to stop working in a controlled way before they become dangerous so that they will be replaced on a timely basis. I've also heard that one reason the Soviet Union failed is they relied heavily on standardized components. This meant that everything was easily replaceable, if your washing machine motor failed you could replace it with the same electric motor taken from an old car. But this also meant Soviet engineers had trouble designing new products since new products with new parts could not compete with those made from low cost and massively manufactured standardized parts. If you needed an inbetween motor size you were stuck with just the standard motor sizes. A higher performing motor that used less energy and lasted longer would have to compete on price with standardized massively produced motors. To some extent this limited the development of new technologies and products. The article linked above mentions that customers also drive product design; if people will always buy whatever is cheaper and pay no attention to product longevity then it is difficult for a manufacturer to compete with a long lasting product; the benefit is not immediately apparent to the purchaser and claims about longer life are hard to prove for the seller (many sellers lie). A lot depends on the specific type of product and peoples perceptions. Many people are willing to spend more on tools that last because they have seen poorly made tools wear out or had it demonstrated how much better a properly made tool works. They are not willing to pay more for long lasting LED light bulbs because the experience with incandescent bulbs is they always wear out so they are used to having to replace them and they are not going to track the individual lifetimes of each bulb type/maker, though that is starting to change as people notice LED bulbs not having the claimed lifetime (hence this discussion).

So some things need to have a limited lifetime, some things are more efficient in terms of manufacturing cost versus lifetime when designed with a limited lifetime, sometimes a limited lifetime leaves room for invention and improvement, and sometimes a longer lifetime uses less resources and is more efficient and makes life easier. Longevity and standardization can work both ways, for and against the minimization of resource use. Capitalism has flaws, and many of them are tied to profit motive, but it does improve some efficiencies and encourage invention. A lot of it is up to people who decide how much they are willing to pay for things. Not everyone can pay the price for longevity, a cheap screwdriver can be used to fix things right now while an expensive screwdriver may mean not also having the use of a cheap hammer right now. Do you live with the house falling apart or buy the cheap tools? Cheap cellphones meant everyone could have one, and replacing them every few years meant the design of cellphones could advance quickly. Once cellphones reached a plateau in design (remember when each new model had more sensors and cheap models had fewer sensors?) the focus should have shifted to longevity.

However, after saying all that, and considering the climate crisis, society and corporations need to be leaning more towards making things last than they are currently. Making things more easily recyclable, making parts reusable, making products last longer. It has to be approached on a product by product basis though, and affect designs where it makes sense. Bring back bumpers on cars that actually prevent damage to the body:

https://ccmarketplace.azureedge.net/cc-temp/listing/108/7778...

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#935

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider $3.75 for a Phillips 95+ CRI bulb a few dollars more. A Home Depot bulb is like $2.75. I hate that you have to research bulbs but you’re making it out way harder than it is.

But those $3-4 bulbs aren't the ones people were talking about. Unless you claim they are the same tier as the waveform bulbs?

They’re really good and far better than most bulbs.

Waveforms are even better but it’s like springing for the luxury item.

But unless you’re someone that could readily tell, it’s not with the price difference.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#936
post #486

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Your answer is missing some steps involving money

I suppose it depends on the extend of the impoverished-ness. The homeless certainly aren’t worried about lightbulbs but the 65% of Americans living paycheck to paycheck probably appreciate the savings.

If you’re living paycheque to paycheque then where is the extra money going to come from to buy expensive bulbs?

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#937

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, people, famous for living less than checks notes 2,500 hours.

Please consider reading the linked article first. The longest continuously active incandescent bulb in the world was switched on in 1901.

I'm well aware of it. That's survivorship bias; it's literally the oldest one, and it's super dim, and it's never power cycled.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#938

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Thankfully, LED lighting will probably be gone within 20 years, while incandescent will be coming back more efficient than LED could dream. Already bumping up against theoretical maximum efficiency, LED lighting can't get any more efficient, and the better LED is at color rendition, the less efficient it is. But there are vast amounts of improvement available for incandescent lighting, and a group at MIT has already…

Exciting, but that article is from 2016 and here we are in 2023 with no commercial availability. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskScienceDiscussion/comments/j6hwn... asked what happened with no real updates.

> Exciting, but that article is from 2016 and here we are in 2023 with no commercial availability.

That is a fantastic point. If they can't revolutionizing lighting in 7 years, it will never happen. Oh, btw, LED was invented in 1962, but it only took about half a century for the commercial viability of high powered LED lighting to appear and begin to take over the lighting market in 2011.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#939
post #492

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> are flicker free to my eyes Very rarely will bulbs visibly flicker in my experience. What happens instead is after several hours I'll start to get headaches and feel fatigue without knowing exactly where it's coming from. Since I replaced my Hue bulbs (which flicker, and I proved it by just using my smartphone camera even) I've felt so much better at home

>which flicker, and I proved it by just using my smartphone camera even all bulbs have some flicker, and the fact that it resonates with your phone screen's refresh rate or your camera sensor's sample rate doesn't really mean anything.

No, if you spend money on a good LED and get a photodiode hooked up to an oscilloscope, you can quantify the flicker. The good LEDs will have absolutely zero.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#940
post #643

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If you're willing to share your design, I'm sure there are other folks like myself who think this is a cool idea. I've wanted to do PoE (or passive PoE) for lights for a while now...

I am going to open source it. The goal was to be able to get all the SMD stuff available at JLPCB so you can just send it to be fabbed (with some thru-hole components you would just solder yourself) or I would also sell them at cost + 10%. My brother designed some 802.3at chips and was going to have him review my work first as I don't want to send out into the world a poorly design power system (there are enough of t…

Sell them at cost + 100% so you actually do it. I reckon buyers won’t care.
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