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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#931

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels This is the counter-culture. The dominant culture opposes all of these things and makes obligatory the celebration of the opposite values. 4chan being one of the few lightly-restricted free speech zones allows for culture generation that would be censored anywhere else. Counter-culture is supposed to be edgy, just like jazz and rock were edgy, grea…

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Much of today's "counterculture" I suppose was more mainstream back in the 60s. Outsiders, delinquents, atavists and reprobates of many sorts are grouped together with, and generally accepted by the prevailing counterculture, but do not necessarily represent the counterculture's core beliefs and practices. They do, however, share a common antagonist.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#932
post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But would you really assert that 1950s in the US was a complete monolith? I think the reason we might intuitively see it that way is because, ironically, we're outsiders. But of course I'm sure you'd agree that there were countless little cultures going on at the time there as well, even within the same cities. So it seems clear that "mainstream" culture is not monolithic, merely dominant. You can always find bubbles…

[Caveat: I'm not an expert here, so ignore all this.] Well, yes and no. The mainstream culture was far more dominant in the 50s than even 20 years later. And of course there were countless little (and often not-at-all-little!) cultures going on at the time -- and still going on. But "counterculture" is not merely "alternative culture" -- and no one would write a post describing America today as lacking "alternative c…

There's one really common fallacy you're engaging in here, largely because our media perpetuates it endlessly. The hippy movement itself was strongly apolitical. I think to many that would be surprising, so I'm going to link to a search [1] instead of any given article. Because this is not an opinion. Okay I can't resist linking to one especially interesting article though [2]. I recall The History Channel on TV turning into complete crap, but they have an oddly great selection of online articles!

Of course people in a movement about freedom, finding yourself, and spirituality would generally respond one way if asked, "Hey should we go get involved in a war on the other side of the world, to try to imperil the reach and influence of a geopolitical competitor?" but the core philosophy was not only apolitical, but largely anti-political: "Do what you want... man." Everything was largely based on a loose interpretation of Eastern philosophy which is similarly much more about the pursuit (and search) for the betterment of one's inner self.

The culture you're describing sounds much more like the Yippie [3] culture, which is something extremely different than hippy. As for authoritarianism - I'd argue that the lack of authoritarianism is precisely what enables counter-cultures. You're not going to see a counter-culture movement in places like Saudi Arabia. And I think something similar is happening in the US. Had the Occupy Movement been treated similarly to the hippies, I think there's a strong argument to be made that it would still exist.

[1] - https://search.brave.com/search?q=were+hippies+political&sou...

[2] - https://www.history.com/news/vietnam-war-hippies-counter-cul...

[3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_International_Party

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#933
post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Caveat: I'm not an expert here, so ignore all this.] Well, yes and no. The mainstream culture was far more dominant in the 50s than even 20 years later. And of course there were countless little (and often not-at-all-little!) cultures going on at the time -- and still going on. But "counterculture" is not merely "alternative culture" -- and no one would write a post describing America today as lacking "alternative c…

There's one really common fallacy you're engaging in here, largely because our media perpetuates it endlessly. The hippy movement itself was strongly apolitical. I think to many that would be surprising, so I'm going to link to a search [1] instead of any given article. Because this is not an opinion. Okay I can't resist linking to one especially interesting article though [2]. I recall The History Channel on TV turn…

I think you're putting words in my mouth: I didn't make any claims of the '60s counterculture being hippies or any other specific movement, let alone being political. Further, the '60s counterculture was a bunch of groups with often very different goals.

Beyond that, I was not claiming the mainstream culture as authoritarian, only that reconsolidating media control could perhaps be a result of a resurgence of authoritarianism.

I think we mostly agree, btw.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#934
post #484

If you only consume mainstream media then you may personally live in a society which lacks a counterculture. You strike up a conversation with the girl picking mushrooms in the middle of nowhere or you go to an underground death metal concert or spend a bit of time on 4chan and you'll find countercultures alive and well that you're just not part of. If you think a sense of sameness pervades the creative world then yo…

Mainstream culture is quite corrupted it goes against many de jure ideals, it may prove to be more counterculture than others.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#935

I am old enough to remember the hippies and related counterculture(s). (I was very young.) This is something to keep in mind: the counterculture then was a place where people made a living. And the cost of living was cheap. You could raise kids on an organic farm, sell in the local alternative stores, have a live show on pirate radio. And pay your modest bills. Health insurance and college tuition was cheap. Jeez --…

People need to give more attention to the collapse in ad-hoc labor. We've made life far too regimented and regulated for many people. I don't think we give enough attention to this gap in the economy.

I always found it funny that people in the informal economy (including hippies selling bracelets) aren't the biggest free market supporters.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#936
post #484

If you only consume mainstream media then you may personally live in a society which lacks a counterculture. You strike up a conversation with the girl picking mushrooms in the middle of nowhere or you go to an underground death metal concert or spend a bit of time on 4chan and you'll find countercultures alive and well that you're just not part of. If you think a sense of sameness pervades the creative world then yo…

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

I still enjoy diving into *chans, (even 4chan which has become so mainstream) because the hobbyist boards are still the best places to have some engagement with hobbyists. Still thinking 4chan culture is a counterculture only supports the thesis that we are living in a society without a counter culture.

You have to be a coddled kid to believe that 4chan and their racism, misogyny and xenophobia are not mainstream or challenge the status quo. I mean, yes liberalism tries to stick a smiley face on the grimm reality, but it’s stupid to think you’re challenging anything just because you draw a frown and a hitler mustache on said smiley face.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#937

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

You are most probably correct about 4chan, I am not myself a visitor but seen similar references of it frequently. But - I can guarantee you that every single similar web I've seen (ie posting funny/gruesome/creative photos and videos, often from 4chan) is exactly the same.

Not every single user, quiet majority still goes there for (some of the) content and discussions are ignored. But once you open them its the same mess. It wasn't dominant so much before but it is like that now. Sparks of sanity drowning in pitiful empty statements. I don't know user details but it feels like bunch of frustrated teenagers who are racing to show who is more depraved and depressed, mixed with adults who are failures in real life and ventilate their anger and hate on such places (I don't believe it works for more than few seconds but its probably as addictive as cigarettes mentally).

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#938

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now the tastemakers are gone or impotent, replaced by automated systems that optimize for engagement and revenue (within whatever constraints of safety and integrity that each company applies). I’m not sure how any countercultural work would make it into the mainstream at this point or how the mainstream could shift going forward. that’s the point that sticks out to me. optimize aggressively for revenue, everywhere…

I can believe in arguments for crypto as a counter-culture, personally. Both in terms of building on the cypherpunk legacy, and also in "utopian visions meet experienced reality" with the associated ups and downs. The hippies had visible lives and lifestyles, and pieces of that entered the mainstream and became influential. The difference is that there is, and intentionally so, little legibility to how crypto "does"…

I think the idea that cryptocurrency terrifies the mainstream is a hilarious one. It certainly doesn't seem to terrify anyone on mainstream finance.

It may 'terrify' some ordinary folks and mainstream journalists, but that's more about the massive amounts of fraud and the enablement of crime than it is about it taking over in any significant way.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#939

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

Counterculture is when you have the same tastes, consumption habits, and political beliefs as a mid level HR manager at a Silicon Valley tech company.

Counterculture is when most of your beliefs align with what the Raytheon PR pushes out. That's how you punk in 2020s.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#940

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels This is the counter-culture. The dominant culture opposes all of these things and makes obligatory the celebration of the opposite values. 4chan being one of the few lightly-restricted free speech zones allows for culture generation that would be censored anywhere else. Counter-culture is supposed to be edgy, just like jazz and rock were edgy, grea…

> LGBTQ was edgy Aside from monogamous gay people, queerness is very much still edgy and not particularly accepted by the dominant/mainstream culture. (This is not a positive thing, but it is reality.)

>queerness is very much still edgy

Something that people advertise about themselves on their linkedin profiles in order to get better job offers is the opposite of edgy.

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