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Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#931

I’ve said it before: I find this highly disturbing. Especially the sense in which it is coordinated. Amazon, Google and Apple acting together to shut down a platform that has been very clear about its stance on content moderation from the outset. Free speech is not just any value. Sooner or later you will find yourself on the side of an issue where your speech will be attacked. Then there is the always present double…

I think there's a useful divide between "what should a platform allow" vs "what should an app store allow" vs "what should fundamental infrastructure for the web allow"

While I think Apple and Google are within their rights to remove an entry point to an app that has incited violence over the past week, I'm not sure I feel the same about Amazon / aws (or GCP if it had been hosted on Google).

If you remove Facebook from the app store, we could all still access the web frontend, just not the app.

Banning a site from ec2, though, feels more like Cloudflare removing ddos protection.

I don't know what was on parler. I don't know how bad it was. My thesis, though (and I think stratechery/Ben Thompson would agree), is that Amazon should require a much higher bar before banning something from ec2 than either Apple or Google do.

Fwiw, I don't think this is "coordinated" so much as big companies responding simultaneously to potential (or already ignited) PR fires

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#932

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

Fringe speech is okay as long as it is in a human-scale community. The community can ostracize the dangerous fringe and prevent it from growing. The internet makes it possible for the fringe from lots of communities to grow into something big enough to be dangerous. I am okay with “Big Tech” ostracizes fringe speech.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#933

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

A thought experiment to test the du jour premise in extreme:

Scenario: US is at war abroad. Government officials, military, and pro-war political wing is using social networks to rally the nation, urge continued fighting, etc.

Tech companies' leadership, being pacifist and against war, decide to deplatform the war party all together. Attempts to establish alternative means of mass communication by pro-war party (and the government!) are blocked as even Cloud Providers ban them.

My conclusion (ymmv) running above in my head: national security trumps private property considerations, and those suggesting private capital operating mass communication networks and system, can behave as they please are wrong.

[p.s. What happens to Pentagon and JEDI and MS cloud, if Microsoft leadership turns pacifists in middle of a war? "Private company" can do as it pleases? The premise is ludicrous when state interests are concerned.]

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Deplatforming a sitting POTUS before constitutional means (impeachment|25th) have legally removed him from office is technically an element of a coup. Two basic things happen in coups: control of mass media, and military brass ignoring chain of command.

For the record, IMHO, there is no way FANGs would dare this if they did not have a greenlight from Pentagon and the Alphabet soup agencies.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#934

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

i would say what you have outlined is consistent with “free speech”. germany, for instance, has very high freedoms while still restricting membership in nazi parties, displaying nazi iconography, publishing...etc.

i think if the line is delineated legally, explicitly, clearly that this restriction adds freedoms to those who would be restricted were free speech absolute and the screams of the intolerant drowned out their pleas for survival.

i think the perception this does not qualify as free speech because it is not absolutely free in a libertarian sense (i can say literally whatever sequence of things i can imagine, i can transmit literally any sequence of bits, i can portray literally anything in film/video games) is a strange and mostly american one.

to be clear: i agree free speech is important and am not particularly arguing against it in the american context here either—one thing that i think is better in sum in american is the high degree of press freedom due to america’s extremely high legal standard for libel. i just wanted to comment on the sociological phenomenon i see where there is “free speech” and “this other thing where it is free speech as most other places would recognize it”.

this is just one of the things makes america peculiar, in a special sense. blessing and a curse, and in total i think the lumps are worth the rest of the pudding.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#936
From an engineering standpoint, this is definitely a cautionary tale about why you should be worried about vendor lock-in. If you don't own/maintain your entire deployment stack (right down to the bare-metal servers that your code is running on) you need to have some kind of plan for being able to migrate to a new vendor (whether because of a TOS violation or just the original vendor shuts down).

I don't know the technical details of the Parlor setup, but depending on how integrated they were with the AWS ecosystem, (e.g. using Lambda executors instead of just running services on EC2) moving off of AWS could mean huge changes to their architecture....

That being said, even in the best case scenario this kind of migration would be very expensive (S3 data egress fees??) and a 24 hour timeline seems absurd! Can anyone with experience in this area speak to if this kind of accelerated timeline is normal when it comes to web-hosting TOS violations? I just cannot imagine signing a contract with a hosting company that would allow them to unilaterally cancel my service with only 24 hours notice. (Admittedly, the NYT article references prior communication between Parlor and Amazon, so this is obviously not totally out-of-the-blue. Still, 24 hours from the final decision to account-deactivation seems insane for an enterprise offering....

(To be clear, I am not trying to argue for or against Amazon's decision to drop Parlor's account. I am just shocked that their AWS contract allows such a limited migration window for something like a TOS violation.)

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#937
post #675

I'm distressed and saddened at how many of the free speech proponents on HN are treating the events of January 6 as if it was just another protest and not an existential threat to the republic. The president's followers said for weeks that "the storm" was coming Jan 6. Nobody took them seriously. Look what happened. The president and his lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, and other followers incited it. Yes the execution of the…

In 1967 the black panthers invaded the California capitol building armed with rifles.

Over the summer of 2020 protestors laid siege to the Federal building in Portland for 100 days straight.

I can list tons of riots and violent direct actions that have happened over the years. Read about the NOW bombing in Philadelphia. Oklahoma City. Waco. The Weather Report. On and on and on.

Elevating the Jan 6th direct action, however scary, tragic, and misguided it might be, to some higher level of ‘coup’ or ‘insurrection’ isn’t rational.

It is another chapter in a long line of crazy events happening around political conflict in the US.

As such, it doesn’t, in my opinion, warrant rethink everything.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#939

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

I think you can still believe in free speech as defined by the 1st amendment and still conclude that these companies acted ethically. Trump and his troglodytes have other ways to reachbtheir audience. They have not bee prevented by the force of law from saying what they want to say. The 1st amendment doesn't apply to private companies and nor does it guarantee a platform. There were platforms back when it was formulated (newspapers). So, i don't think it is a case of "platforms did not exist so the 1st amendment could not account for them"

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#940

From an engineering standpoint, this is definitely a cautionary tale about why you should be worried about vendor lock-in. If you don't own/maintain your entire deployment stack (right down to the bare-metal servers that your code is running on) you need to have some kind of plan for being able to migrate to a new vendor (whether because of a TOS violation or just the original vendor shuts down). I don't know the tec…

Owning your own hardware if not enough; if it was that easy it wouldn't be a big deal.

You still need access to the network, meaning people who are willing to peer with you. It'll be a big problem if a major player says "we'll cut you off if you peer with Parlor, directly or indirectly".

You also need access to domain names, payment providers, maybe advertising networks.

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