A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#931

Post by Nebasuke » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 12:57 AM UTC

dogprez wrote: post #868

spicyramen wrote: post #808

Downvote me if you want, but as a SWE I find my job very highly rewarded both economically and technically. I'm happy where I am and in my team. I'm a minority and I have study all my life to be competitive, I have been treated fairly because of my skills. Free food, gym, coffee, stocks, high salaries, mobility, not sure I can ask for more

I can't speak the the intent of the union in the article but after all of those things you listed you might want to know that your colleagues are getting treated fairly as well. For example, how would you feel about all your benefits if you learned there were contractors that did your same job that didn't have access to the same benefits that you have and haven't been given an avenue to earn those benefits? ( https:/…

The contractor mentioned in the article is not doing the same job, but is instead a vendor (the vendor term is only mentioned in passing in the article).

Google classifies contractors that work via an external agency as vendors. Most vendor workers at Google have roles which don't exist as a full time role at all and vendor contracts often even prevent vendor workers from being permanently hired. Cleaners for example are often vendors.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#932

Post by esoterica » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 1:11 AM UTC

bumby wrote: post #825

esoterica wrote: post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You DO know that you have virtually no say in what is in that contract, "accept it or leave," is not having a say in that contract. Not only is "accept it or leave it" very much a form of "having a say" in your work parameters, it's a much more powerful way of exerting your preferences than voting. If 100,000 people are voting on a contract your 1/100,000th share of the influence functionally rounds to zero. The co…

> The contract will reflect your coworkers aggregate preferences, which will in general be completely orthogonal to your own preferences. Can you elaborate on your thoughts here or cite evidence to support it? On first thought, it doesn’t ring true to me. E.g., most of the union contract conditions seem to benefit most individuals with the exception of some edge cases

Plenty of union contracts emphasize seniority when it comes to pay/benefits/promotions etc, which makes it harder both for younger employees to get pay increases and promotions out of turn and for people to job hop for career progression.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#933

Post by Apocryphon » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 1:14 AM UTC

erklik wrote: post #922

Apocryphon wrote: post #895

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, as much as people hate certification and standardization in this industry, even something as simple as "a tech union or the IEEE or Triplebyte produces a standard algorithms /data structures interview exam, candidates take that once and are certified for at least 5-10 years, and technical interviews then become more domain-specific or at least less academic", could be a nice alternative to the status quo. Go th…

> Go through the Leetcode gauntlet once and get credentialed The issue here is thinking that the Leetcode gauntlet matters at all in most jobs. A certification for Leetcode shouldn't matter when all I do is HTML, CSS, and JS to call various APIs. I do agree with the general idea that some certification could prove some base level knowledge, where furthur testing beyond that could take place. The issue lies in decidin…

Sure, but many of the Silicon Valley tech companies still prioritize Leetcode, and have that in common, which means a candidate will have to do it over and over again. Might as well turn that into a credential so the interviewers at least have to ask candidates to do something relevant to their work for the "show me how you think" whiteboard problem-solving sections of the interview.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#934

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 1:16 AM UTC

ksenzee wrote: post #878

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a reason companies like Google suppress initiatives to form unions, and build strong zeitgeists within their employee base that unionization is bad. If unionization is so bad why do companies spend so much money breaking it up? If something was bad, why would you take the existence of opposition to it as evidence of it being good? Suppose unionization was bad for both employers and employees. You would cert…

If unionization were bad for employees, I'd expect the employers to be able to make that case persuasively. If they don't, I assume there's not much of a case to be made.

Isn't that what they're doing, which is why the prevalence of private sector unions in the US has been on the decline?

The union leadership, of course, describes the employers making their case as "union busting" and "anti-union propaganda".

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#935

Post by readams » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 1:18 AM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #861

pwned1 wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the cart before the horse. Tell me I'm signing up for something that I have no idea how it will turn out, and then present me with a take it or leave it contract months later. And I'm stuck.

I (from the UK) don't understand: you don't have to join a union. Keep your current contract and don't have a say in Union representation and negotiation, if that's what you want. It's 'take greater combined power against the corporation you work for' (and in things like representation of your industry before government) or stand on your own as you do now. I don't understand how it's possible to lose? You can even wi…

In this case it would be me against a group of employee activists with goals I don't agree with plus the executive leadership. So now I'm powerless against two groups. Even from their announcement post it sounds like they're mostly in favor of political activism and not a single whiff of anything that would actually make my life any better.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#936

Post by adjkant » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 1:18 AM UTC

yrimaxi wrote: post #849

da_big_ghey wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster. I am such a person. For most workers, you're right that a union will probably increase wages. But for me, it will do the opposite. In most jobs I have worked, I ended up paid significantly more than counterparts in the same job. I usually was better at my job and put in…

I think we can just end the whole thread with this comment (the parent’s). It’s perfect. To summarize: unions might in general be good or bad, but any talk of tech unions on HN will be controversial because of how massively—and this cannot be overstated—, stupendously better the average HN reader is compared to the average tech worker. Thread over.

The irony of this reply is I can't tell if it's a tongue in cheek piece about the hubris of the HN community or 100% serious.

I think there's something to be said about quality, but if we look at unionization at just the company level, you are likely to get a much higher average at some companies. Even if the assumption on the average HN reader's ability is true, this doesn't end the conversation: it refocuses it onto other levels than a union over the entire industry.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#937

Post by sjg007 » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 1:27 AM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #927

sjg007 wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, baseball unionization was what drove higher salaries.

It had the effect of driving up wages for veteran players. Collective bargaining in Major League Baseball produced service time provisions that artificially limit the salaries of young players while driving up the pay of established veterans. Seniority provisions are a common feature of union contracts and they’re a direct wealth transfer from younger, generally poorer workers to older, more established employees.

Um, yeah you don't know what you are talking about. https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Minimum_salary

You make the real money after free agency. Draft picks get slot bonuses. If you are on the roster you make $500k+

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#938

Post by credit_guy » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 1:35 AM UTC

Would it be possible to create a union that opposes this union? If this union lobbies against contracts with the US military and US law enforcement, my union to let the management know that we are actually ok with these contracts? Something like a union to speak for the "silent majority"?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#939

Post by humanrebar » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 1:35 AM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #903

finnthehuman wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions Because everyone talking about unionization refuses to get into the nitty gritty of what I might gain, what I might lose, and the structural changes to the workplaces that are inherent with unionization. And if/when I/others start spitballing about what those might be we're treated like dolts uneducated on organized labor, and should just…

> " everyone talking about unionization refuses to get into the nitty gritty of what I might gain, what I might lose, " Do you support dictatorships or monarchies on the grounds that democracy enthusiasts cannot tell you exactly what the populace will vote for? To use your phrasing, where in the fuck is the actual case study about the structure of the status quo's constraints, influences and incentives? Apart from th…

It's worth noting that the Bill of Rights was agreed to in principle before the U.S. Constitution was modified. The amendment process also can bypass the national office holders if need be, which is a kind of democratic check on centralized power, albeit an basically unused one so far.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#940

Post by byecomputer » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 1:36 AM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #481

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve Unfortunately, through my own experience being in one & observing other unions, they often end up serving the organization of the union itself. They may still work for the workers, but also end up making decisions that are better for the union than for the workers. Right now, my kids are learning remotely. Howe…

Having teachers drive to work to talk in front of a webcam is an obviously unnecessary move and a waste of time. They don't need a vague justification, it's pretty evident why this is a non-starter.