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YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

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Re: YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

#931

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The lie may have already had its desired effect by the time the truth comes out, if it ever does Yes, that's unfortunate. There is no way to consistently detect lies, which is also unfortunate for anyone arguing for censorship as then you cannot ascertain which claims should be censored and which should not. > Lies about, for example, the stab-in-the-back, tobacco and WMDs in Iraq got the liars what they wanted at…

> There are no edge cases because it's not promising utopia, it's promising freedom, The edge cases are where millions die because of lies perpetuated unchecked. "Freedom" is the ability to say whatever you want without the government getting involved, nothing else. If a private party doesn't like what you say, tough shit get off their property. Otherwise you're impinging on their freedom to keep anyone the hell they…

> The edge cases are where millions die because of lies perpetuated unchecked

When did this happen? The Holocaust? If there weren't blasphemy laws then the Bible could've been challenged and you wouldn't have rampant anti-semitism waiting to be pushed into something far more abhorrent than nasty speech. Same goes for the cause of the pogroms, free speech would've been more likely to end them before they had begun.

There are plenty of other socialist movements that ended in genocide of many more millions - would you say they existed in an environment of free speech?

> "Freedom" is the ability to say whatever you want without the government getting involved, nothing else

Freedom of speech is the ability, without interference by government or society, to say what you want, to whom you want, at the time of your choosing; and to listen to whom you want, when you want. The US government is restrained in interference by the constitution but that does not mean other entities don't interfere in others' speech. Was there no racist action before racist action was defined in law?

> If a private party doesn't like what you say, tough shit get off their property. Otherwise you're impinging on their freedom to keep anyone the hell they want off their property.

There are exceptions to every rule - arrest warrants for certain classes of crime are one example, you cannot simply tell the police to go away if you're wanted for murder. When the application of several entities' rights butt up against one another then one right or entity's rights may have more merit than another, which is why we have courts to decide on such novel moments or for legislators to define the sensible limits of rights.

Since you're really talking about social media though and not physical property, I would agree except in the case of monopolies. If HN wants to kick someone off, no problem. FB or Twitter or Google are different propositions.

> Overall, I find it hilarious in this whole discussion that conservatives appear to be arguing for more government interference in private property rights and freedom of expression.

I'm not a conservative, nor an anarchist. Regardless, government is supposed to interfere where rights are being impinged in order to protect those rights. Hence, you've got the wrong end of the stick, we "conservatives" are arguing for government interference against censorship.

Re: YouTube bans coronavirus vaccine misinformation

#932
post #925

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's put aside the irony of using Germany as an example, somewhere that had hate speech laws that didn't prevent National Socialism at all , and rampant anti-semitism that was left unchallenged because of blasphemy laws, and which now has to limit freedom of speech in fear of Nazism rising again. Notice how nothing remotely similar has ever taken hold in the US even though they allow Nazis to parade and speak freely…

>Notice how nothing remotely similar has ever taken hold in the US even though they allow Nazis to parade and speak freely. Ah, I think I see what side you stand on, if you can't see all the far-right stuff going down where Nazis are parading US politics for almost 4 years. >In English that is known as censorship, since at least the publication of On Liberty, but it's also a good example of German paternalism and app…

> Ah, I think I see what side you stand on, if you can't see all the far-right stuff going down where Nazis are parading US politics for almost 4 years.

Ah, the promised rise of fascism in the US government! It's been almost 4 years now, when will it materialise? There are, however, fascists in the streets burning, looting and rioting, and they've been implicated in the deaths of many people. Do wake me when the government fascism begins though ;-)

> I disagree, positive liberty ensures that as much as your liberty remains preserved without infringing on the liberties of other people. Your freedom ends where other people's freedom begin.

That's not positive liberty, that's negative liberty[1].

> >Pre-crime as a category is tyrannical. Those who cannot remember - or understand - the past are condemned to repeat it.

> Is it pre-crime if you've been calling for the death of a minority group?

No. Pre-crime is the judgement of a crime that has not occurred.

> That is a crime in my eyes, regardless of how actionable it was, as it hurts those minorities regardless due to the sentiment expressed.

Words do not cause objective harm, that's why there's a distinction easily made between words and other actions like using your fists. Feeling hurt by words is something we would all wish to avoid but incredibly dangerous as the basis for criminal statute.

> Private individuals can surpres speech by their own speech, that isn't censorship but it is violent in many cases.

Speech is not violence, violence involves the application of physical force. If speech causes someone to anticipate imminent physical force then I would criminalise that. Luckily, that was done a thousand years ago in English common law under "assault" so I don't need to bother.

>Forgive me, but this is utter nonsense. Why would satarists need to check facts? Is it because ssatarists in Germany are liable to be put in danger and legal hazard?[1]

> If they are lying about things, yes. A satirist can't just start insulting people or spew lies without repercussions from the people injured as a result, physically or otherwise.

Luckily (again) there are laws in place for malicious lying that defames, in civil law. It is only a crime in countries that are not au fait with freedom, like Germany.

> I don't think that freedom of religion requires an american freedom of speech but feel free to prove me wrong.

If the government can interfere in your speech then you may only practise your religion - and I'm including private practice - as much as they allow. That's not freedom, that's an allowance, like daddy might give a child at the weekend.

> While germany has problems with anti-semitism, people are working against it, the government is working against it.

Hard to believe you could write that if you'd read the article. I wouldn't point the finger at anyone else if you can put out an apologetic like that, and yet you do…

> THe US in recent years has started to have problems with anti-semitism, however, since your government is not doing anything in that regard, one has to rely on civil organization to attempt to even track it's rise.

I'm not an American, and you'll find that anti-semitism in the US is rising for reasons that will be uncomfortable to you politically[2], though it should hardly be a surprise that socialist movements are anti-semitic, we had at least a whole century of it to learn from.

> The US has many problems at the moment and a lot of them stem from the fact that the US is unwilling to stamp out those people…

Did you write that and then this with a straight face?

> But feel free to wallow in your imagined freedoms until the steel boots come.

I was worried about satire in Germany but I see it is safe in your hands.

> In the early 20th century, germany had much experience in this regard, you can't use speech to surpress nazis, they will use guns and violence to silence you if the government does not stop it.

Actually, Germany institued speech laws against Nazis, from[3]:

> In Weimar Germany, the Nazis and their ideas were censored – regularly, in fact. Leading Nazis including Joseph Goebbels, Theodor Fritsch and Julius Streicher were all prosecuted for hate speech before they rose to power – and Streicher was imprisoned twice. The Nazi publication Der Stürmer was regularly confiscated and its editors were taken to court on at least 36 occasions. Anti-Semitic speech was explicitly prohibited by law, leading to more than 200 prosecutions in the 15 years before Hitler came to power. ‘As subsequent history so painfully testifies’, writes civil-liberties campaigner Alan Borovoy in When Freedoms Collide, ‘this type of legislation proved ineffectual on the one occasion when there was a real argument for it’.

By contrast, Nazism did not arise in the US despite there being widespread racism, and the use of free speech actually helped the civil rights movement bring equality to all. In the words of Frederick Douglass from his speech, "A Plea For Freedom of Speech in Boston"[4]:

> Liberty is meaningless where the right to utter one’s thoughts and opinions has ceased to exist. That, of all rights, is the dread of tyrants. It is the right which they first of all strike down. They know its power. Thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers, founded in injustice and wrong, are sure to tremble, if men are allowed to reason of righteousness, temperance, and of a judgment to come in their presence. Slavery cannot tolerate free speech

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfhQhdA-zss A primer in the two concepts of liberty.

[2] https://www.newsweek.com/anti-semitism-derail-black-lives-ma...

[3] https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/07/28/you-cant-defeat-rac...

[4] https://lawliberty.org/frederick-douglass-plea-for-freedom-o...

Edit: typo

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