Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#931

Post by staticassertion » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

the_clarence wrote: post #817

staticassertion wrote: post #308

I feel like anyone who says "Linus was harsh but fair" never really read much of what Linus said. Many of his attacks, especially long ago, were quite vitriolic and very much not technical. Oftentimes they weren't rants, just flat out insults, short and mean (I remember, in particular, posts directed towards PaX). They weren't productive, there wasn't a brash technical take buried in them - they were just insults. Ma…

People keep saying things like that but no one is linking to threads we can read

Well they're decades-old mailing list threads. I don't exactly have them in my back pocket.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#932

Post by fefe23 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

Is there any actual data on how "being an asshole" is bad for the product?

Because, frankly, Linux is one of the most successful projects in history. I think if Linus telling repeat offenders to stuff it was bad for the project, we ought to be able to measure some bad effects. Note that I'm saying measure. I'm talking about actual, objective effects, not someone complaining.

If "people are complaining" would be bad for business, Comcast and EA would not exist.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#933

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 6:23 PM UTC

coffeemug wrote: post #450

grzm wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ”I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day“ This is a false dichotomy. There’s no need to be an asshole to not be a pushover.

Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…

"it's a stupid idea" is terrible feedback.

Talking about why something shouldn't be done or why another way is preferable is way better.

Saying something is stupid will only work if you have complete power. If you explain why you think one approach is better than the other you can actually affect change without just holding the power.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#934

Post by marmot777 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 6:28 PM UTC

sverhagen wrote: post #833

marmot777 wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most great people have a flaw that hinders them or even brings them down. That same flaw is also part of the trait that drove them to greatness. Linus's flaw fits that model and he's self aware enough to grok it and try to mitigate the problem. That said, if you removed 100% of the asshole from Linus you'd have removed the drive that made him a hero. I hope he finds the balance. Regardless, he'll always be one of my…

Is that a fact from psychology or statistics or something, because it sounds to me like making excuses for his bad behavior? I don't see how being an asshole should have much correlation with success.

I acknowledge it's just my feeling not based on any psychology research that I know about, though if you'd seen any of the other comments I've made in this thread you'd see that I absolutely don't make excuses for Linus's bad behavior. Quite the opposite.

And I don't think you understood what I was trying to say regarding the dark side of what drives a successful leader, I didn't communicate it particularly well.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#935

Post by blablabla123 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 7:12 PM UTC

fapjacks wrote: post #865

jek0 wrote: post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those thing are not mutually exclusive. You can be both Charismatic and Rude. Many people are happily following Linus' directions. Sometime he enforces those directions rudely, which drives some people away. It also prevents crappy patches from stubborn contributors from going through.

Totally. I've always felt that's the price for having the Linux kernel be what it is today. Just imagine what kinds of shit would get merged into the kernel if it was run by a council of submissive, overly-polite people with soft handshakes. I always considered certain kinds of programming to be like smithing on a hot forge: If you can't handle the occasional burn, then it's not for you. I mean this idea is not even…

I think the comparison with the workplace doesn't work really well. Linux is an Open-Source project, with the exception of some people that get paid by their employer to hack on the Linux kernel, people work on it voluntarily. This is a whole different universe.

To be honest, I don't see any point in overly hot forges in the workplace. People hopefully go to work because they like what they do there. But on the other hand it's sometimes difficult to prevent, like as you might suggest in financial market jobs, or of course in many Startup jobs which don't have much money.

Anyways, Linux is a project made by Linus Torvalds and it developed along his Philosophy of doing this. If someone doesn't like that, there are enough choices like Windows or macOS. Or for more tech-savvy people there are other options like for instance the BSD flavours.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#936

Post by Ronsenshi » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 7:17 PM UTC

Latty wrote: post #900

shard972 wrote: post #856

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you produce good work if you never improve yourself? If going personal can improve someone and then improve their work, whats the argument again that we shouldn't go personal? Hurt feelings?

Yes, feelings matter. "Going personal", as the grandparent pointed out, doesn't help anyone improve themselves. You can point out issues with someone's contribution without attacking them, and that's all they need to improve. If someone is incapable or refuses to learn from that, then you can say that they need to before you can accept contributions from them, but attacking them personally is just unacceptable.

What would you consider "going personal"?

If student is lazy or didn't think his work through - is it personal to call student on that - call him/her lazy? Tell him/her "you're not thinking!"?

Surprisingly - some people take personally critique of their work.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#937

Post by thrownaway954 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 7:21 PM UTC

Can't stand how people are too sensitive today. Linus is and has been a asshole for decades. But that asshole has given us one of the greatest contributions to computing. If you can't handle his attitude then don't be a part of the community or grow some thicker skin. Life isn't always soft.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#938

Post by JohnBooty » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 8:01 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #530

JohnBooty wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The public embarrassment of lazy and dishonest actors, especially those who are paid to collaborate, is an effective tool for maintaining order and standards on behalf of the quality of the product, and provided nobody gets hurt permanently at the end of the day, it is easily justified. Can you explain why you feel rants and insults are necessary to maintain high technical standards? Literally nobody is asking Linus…

> Can you explain why you feel rants and insults are necessary to maintain high technical standards? It is possible that they are not truly "necessary", but they are one often-effective way to discourage disruptive/unproductive behaviour. Linus ultimately should not be asked to review changesets he will be far from willing to merge; and for him there are only so many hours in the day. It is, as a practical matter, ne…

    there are only so many hours [for Linus] in the day. It 
    is, as a practical matter, necessary to communicate that 
    there is a cost to wasting his time with work that 
    somebody should have known was substandard

This is a really a restatement of the old (yet still relevant) "Linus doesn't scale" issue, right?

It's true: Linus' time is a valuable resource and shouldn't be wasted. This is of course true of any project maintainer, or any person at all really -- it's just that the stakes are a higher in the case of the Linux kernel because of the scope and impact of the project.

    it is important that that cost is borne primarily by the 
    originator of that substandard work (i.e. it needs to suck 
    more for the committer to waste Linus' time than it sucks 
    for Linus to spend time responding)

This is a nearly universal problem.

Imagine suggesting "hurl insults at the perpetrators until they learn" as a solution in any other field. Ridiculous!

The answer of course is to proactively reduce the number of time-wasting things that are raised to Linus' attention, not to reactively be meaner when those sorts of things do happen.

Typically you'd do this in Linux or any software project by:

(a) making sure that the other kernel maintainers are trusted and skilled (b) making sure that everybody has a solid understanding of what is and isn't a good contribution (c) discussing contributions ahead of time so that there are fewer surprises at review/merge time (d) solve the "Linus doesn't scale" issue by delegating more of his responsibility elsewhere, cloning him, etc.

I should note that I have no idea about how the kernel maintainers function on a daily basis. Maybe they're already doing a really great job of those things, and it's only 0.001% of merge requests that result in spectacular Linus rants and therefore show up on HN or whatever. Since it seems like kernel development is humming along pretty well for the mooooooost part I'd put my money on that, but who knows.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#939

Post by JohnBooty » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 8:04 PM UTC

Bender wrote: post #854

JohnBooty wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but firm" (as a sweeping generality) Consider this: A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not "rude." This is called charisma. - "Agreeable and lax"... you allow them to paint the…

I personally like calm, rational logical inspirational leaders. I would like the fictional Captain Picard! Those are very hard to find. In my humble opinion, I believe you will find a lot of disagreement on methodologies throughout this thread as some folks are introverts, some extroverts and a wide range in between. Each person here will have had their own personal experiences that were a result of a mix of personal…

   I personally like calm, rational logical inspirational
   leaders. I would like the fictional Captain Picard! 
   Those are very hard to find.

Great example! He was fictional, of course, but he was a good example of a leader who took no shit and held his crew to high standards, yet cared deeply for his crew and did not resort to petty rants.

Although didn't he sleep with or almost sleep with Dr. Crusher? Maybe Linus shouldn't emulate that part.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#940

Post by JohnBooty » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 8:08 PM UTC

supernovae wrote: post #686

JohnBooty wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly he has done far, far, far more good than bad. I don't think anybody feels otherwise. I would say he's something of a hero to me! He has certainly rallied many to his cause. As much good as he has done, could he do some things better? Linus certainly feels so. Interesting that so many here seem doubt Linus' own assertion.

Have you ever worked with brilliant assholes? It sucks the life out of you - and it really sucks when they get idolized and rewarded heavily. It creates a vicious cycle of absurdity - the one where people appease the anger to try and achieve some good not realizing how much the bad influences the culture of the movement/organization/group. No one is perfect, but the community for far to long treated an imperfect man…

    Have you ever worked with brilliant assholes? It sucks
    the life out of you - and it really sucks when they 
    get idolized and rewarded heavily.

Yes and yes. Dear god, yes.

A bit tangential, but I'm not sure that Linus is generally thought of as an asshole in general? Is he?

My outsider's perspective is that he's admired and liked besides these occasional rants that sometimes get kind of weird and insult-y.

I'm not excusing those moments by any means! I've just never gotten the impression that they're the rule, or that he's generally some sort of unbearable tyrant.