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W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

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Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#931

Post by holon »

saganus wrote: post #53
tptacek wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems self-evidently unharmful, in that we appear to be in a golden era of delivering content online so extraordinary that it threatens traditional television networks. I understand that this is an extremely unpopular sentiment on HN, but here goes: at least with respect to video content, the industry seems to have largely proven DRM concerns unfounded. Update: modulo the Hickson concerns below. Continuing: DRM ce…

Maybe the harm will be realized in the long run, when you want to watch something that is no longer available? For example, the Netflix library changes every now and then (at least that I've been able to detect), and there's more than one show that I can no longer watch anymore that I wish I could. That to me is harmful because I don't really know when this happens until I search for it and it's no longer there. So I…

Netflix announces which content will be added/removed months ahead of time. The decision to remove content is driven primarily by the principal right holders - Netflix is largely just "leasing" the shows that it presents (hence the company's shift to producing its own content).

To present it as a decision solely made by Netflix grossly underestimates the contractual complexity and involved parties responsible for turning a screenplay into something you can stream in 4K, all of whom have ownership stakes to lesser or greater degrees.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#932

Post by Accacin »

Analemma_ wrote: post #32
Accacin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DRM doesn't and will never work. It only serves to annoy people that pay for the movie/game/whatever legitimately. It's against everything the W3C stands for. You dont' have to support something just because it's happening. You fight it, you don't give into it.

> DRM doesn't and will never work. It only serves to annoy people that pay for the movie/game/whatever legitimately. I never said otherwise, and in fact I totally agree. A big part of my annoyance at the outrage over EME is the automatic assumption that you must be pro-DRM if you're not joining the furor. > It's against everything the W3C stands for. No, that's you (and everyone on this thread) projecting. The W3C is…

> No, that's you (and everyone on this thread) projecting.

"The social value of the Web is that it enables human communication, commerce, and opportunities to share knowledge. One of W3C's primary goals is to make these benefits available to all people, whatever their hardware, software, network infrastructure, native language, culture, geographical location, or physical or mental ability."

I don't know mate, that seems pretty clear to me.

> ensure the long-term growth of the Web

Without DRM the web will die? It seems to have been fine so far, would you not agree?

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#933

Post by always_good »

yakubin wrote: post #593
driverdan wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It harms anyone who wants to use streaming content offline on devices they control. I often have slow internet access in my home which limits my ability to stream. If I can download when I have a good connection I can view later when my connection goes to shit. This is not an option with most streaming services (eg Netflix). I pay for these services. I should have control of how and when I view the content.

Netflix allows you to download videos. I've watched several episodes of Star Trek on a train this way.

Not all shows support that, though.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#934

Post by acdha »

belorn wrote: post #925
acdha wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EME offers an interface to decode audio and video stream. How is what you're talking about even possible in that context?

Where is the source code of the DRM module that shows that the only thing the code do to the stream is decode audio and video? Oh, that part is not part of the open part of the standard. The super cookies, the administrative hooks into the operative system, the access to everything from the webcam to the hard drive, all that is what the EME is talking to through an interface labeled audio and video stream. A perfectl…

Those are good questions – and you might find Firefox's sandboxing implementation worth study – but that's not what we were talking about. Currently there's no talk of implementing restrictions on code, etc. within browsers and it hurts the cause to spread easily disproven claims that it's happening now.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#935

Post by masswerk »

cookiecaper wrote: post #914
masswerk wrote: post #835

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be wrong, but isn't connecting to a web server by lynx illegal (considered "hacking") in some countries? I remember a case in the UK around the time of the London olympic games.

I'm not familiar with that case, but I don't think an accusation that using a text mode browser like Lynx constitutes "hacking" would stand up to any type of scrutiny. (I'm not a lawyer and I'm in the US; things may differ in the UK). Lawyers will make the most egregious leaps and grasps to paint the opposing party in the worst light possible, especially in the early stages of the case, because if they don't claim th…

Please note that this wasn't related to some lawyer actions, but the Metropolitan Police's Computer Crime Unit acting on the basis of suspected offence under the Computer Misuse Act. The offensive act occurred while the browser was used for making a donation at a tsunami related website of the Disasters and Emergency Committee, where the browser showed up as an "unusual event" in the access logs.

I believe, the case is part of a more general theme (which is, indeed, related to the EME topic): There's a perceptible will to regulate any kind of browsing into consumer-style app usage. E.g., manually entering a URL ("URL hacking") has been considered a fraud attempt; using a browser which only supports the basic protocol set and not all of it is considered as possibly related to intrusion and terrorism (oh, that T-word again). In the end, we may wake up with the law enforcing a certain, standardized life style. We may wake up with a deregulated companies and strictly regulated citizens.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#936

Post by always_good »

admax88q wrote: post #678
chenster wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can even download Netflix to your phone and watch it later.

And then it casually and silently deletes them after some unspecified time. Which has screwed me before on a long flights. Now I always pirate media in advance I intend to watch in the air. I don't want to have to babysit my netflix downloads to make sure that they really are downloaded.

Wow, really? Yeah, that's a bit enraging. Idiosyncrasies like this should at least be exposed in the UI. An expiration countdown in this case.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#937

Post by masswerk »

holmb wrote: post #882
masswerk wrote: post #857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare Linux Reviews, "Solaris-user arrested by British Police for using Lynx" -- http://linuxreviews.org/news/2005/01/28_0001/28_0001.html.en

That is scary indeed. Was he convicted? Police do make mistakes and one can only hope that they are corrected.

I faintly recall reading (to my utter astonishment) that he was at least not freed from the accusation as you would have expected. I tried a search for any follow-ups, but to no avail. Maybe due to the "right to forget." (Information conveyed without warranty, liability or claim of correctness. It has been 12 years since, I may be in error.)

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#938

Post by hacking_again »

nasredin wrote: post #839
barrkel wrote: post #763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1GB per hour isn't enough if you have a big screen (I use a 100" screen with projector). Not even Amazon encodes video well, they have particularly poor colour quantization that ends up filling the screen with blotchy seas of uniform colour; Netflix has the best encoding settings IME.

You are not downloading the right type releases. WRT movies: WEBDL is usually 4-5GB 720p Bluray: 6GB 1080p: 8GB and up.

Right, so since movies are about 2 hours, divide those numbers by 2 to get GB per hour. It's hard to find that quality for good but unpopular movies or shows. But then again, it's usually hard to find good but unpopular movies or shows at all on Netflix.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#939

Post by pseudalopex »

scriptkiddy wrote: post #901
cjsuk wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Back in the dark ages, when the battle of www vs Gopher was still on, I sided heavily on the side of Gopher because it didn't get in the way of the content. Gopher was a means to navigate the maze of content and most of the content was textual, postscript and neatly typeset. You could sit down with it and read it focused or print it out. We've regressed to the point where 5KiB of text comes with 2MiB of crap…

> We've regressed to the point where 5KiB of text comes with 2MiB of crap, meaning a noise to signal ratio of 26dB which is insane! Unfortunately that's what the average layman wants. They want the SPA experience. That's what they want to pay for. What kind of professional am I if I don't give people what they want to pay for? > I've even had enough of building things on the web. It is a horrible horrible thing to ha…

> Unfortunately that's what the average layman wants. They want the SPA experience.

What about that experience do they want, and how do you know they want it? Engagement metrics can make auto-playing video look like a great idea, but people dislike it enough that browsers are starting to block it.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#940

Post by cjsuk »

snakeanus wrote: post #902
cjsuk wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Back in the dark ages, when the battle of www vs Gopher was still on, I sided heavily on the side of Gopher because it didn't get in the way of the content. Gopher was a means to navigate the maze of content and most of the content was textual, postscript and neatly typeset. You could sit down with it and read it focused or print it out. We've regressed to the point where 5KiB of text comes with 2MiB of crap…

> And not postscript. Something you can author by hand. How about TeX? Many sites already use js libraries that integrate latex.

Not the worst idea. However not the best. Something between that and markdown.
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