We can make burglary illegal without any additional explanation of why burglary is "wrong". This is because it is part of understanding the concept of burglary to know that it is wrong. It's the same sort of logic that applies to Nazi propaganda: it is wrong simply because it is Nazi propaganda. We understand what it is and what they are saying, so we do not need to go to additional lengths to explain why it is wrong. It should be silenced for no other reason than that it is Nazi propaganda. To promote Nazi propaganda is to undermine the social contract itself about what constitutes free speech. It is a mistake of Enlightenment political philosophy to say that every decision we make about what constitutes right and wrong must derive ultimately from basic principles by logical reasoning. In many cases merely understanding a concept suffices to directly condemn an activity and Nazi propaganda is almost the best example of how we can, without further conversation, simply say "NO"... we are not going to help you promote this and we are not going to politely explain to you why we do not agree with your views. All this talk about free speech and Nazis is nonsense. I support Cloudflare's decision.
Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
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Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#932What about the case where Microsoft Frontpage's EULA forbid creation of websites that shed a negative light on Microsoft? Wasn't the verdict that such a clause is not enforceable?
link?
My memory failed me. There was no case, simply speculation. I remember discussing it WRT some other EULA case. https://books.google.com/books?id=9jgEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=P...
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#933Earlier quoted context omitted.
> He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. Well... Yeah. I'm not sure why people think this is not how the internet works. It's a knit of private industry in most of the west and with the exception of a few (eroding) laws, private industries do all kinds of things. The problem for DS is: there ar…
> The difference here is that neo-nazis make a decision to be bigots. They could stop. Most LGBT people consider their status to be a matter of birth. I don't understand why this argument gets thrown about so often. Obviously not so much about neo-nazis in particular, but whenever a comparison is made to LGBT people. And before anybody jumps to conclusions, I am not about to argue that sexual orientation is a choice.…
Muslims make a decision to follow Islam. They could stop.
But then they would be considered an apostate by most of the people they have ever known, and some of those people may consider apostasy to be a capital crime.
Do you really think it that easy for someone who is immersed in a niche culture to walk away from it, particularly if it is an insular and unpopular culture? It happens, but not everyone is strong enough to overcome the cognitive dissonance and leave behind everything they have ever been taught.
It isn't a matter of expecting a neo-Nazi to suddenly decide to stop being one, but in getting one to a cult deprogrammer counselor and providing sufficient social support afterwards, as they will likely have to discard all previous friends and family in the process. It would be similar to a homosexual kid coming out to fundamentalist parents. "Mom, Dad... I have decided that all people are created equal, and I want to judge people not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." "I knowed we never shoulda sent you to no public school. Get out."
For most humans, leaving an accidental community requires subsequent joining of an intentional community. And the stronger the stigma and adversity against that original community, the harder it is for someone to believe they could be accepted by anyone else upon leaving it.
But that really only applies to the passive followers, who go along to get along. There are always true die-hard believers, for whom facts and contrary evidence simply dissolve under the light of their religious or pseudo-religious faith. They have intentionally excised their own capacity to question their beliefs. How much effort are you willing to expend to crack open that nut and "save" them? They are certainly never going to pull themselves out under their own power.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#934I would never shut down such websites. Not due to Freedom of speech, but because now they will hide better. Most of these people login with their Facebook accounts to post hateful comments etc. I mean, seriously, all it takes for any law enforcement is to keep these people under control and that's it and sue them if it's the case. On the other hand, now we risk to create more and more parallel societies and secret gr…
Hide better? These aren't child pornographers trying to stay under the radar of the law. These are Nazis advocating for the murder of people who don't look like them, and trying to make their views mainstream. Making them harder to for the vast majority of people to find is a major part of exactly how you shut a violent fascist movement down. And if you don't think a movement like this should be shut down, you're par…
> Making them harder to for the vast majority of people to find is a major part of exactly how you shut a violent fascist movement down.
Did you ever read about how Mussolini or Hitler gained their power? Do you really think that the governments back then didn't do anything to prevent what they were trying to start? That they didn't try to shut them down, etc.?
We are talking about a severe social problem that unfortunately ends up mostly with bulls* - white supremacy and all this cr. Why? Because nobody wants to listen to these people - what are the issues they have? I would say that most of the time, these people don't have a high income. Maybe they are unemployed, etc., maybe they don't feel secure/safe - do you actually know why they do these things? Some may be mentally ill, but hell, I don't want to believe that all of them are!
How many times does this have to happen again and again...? When will we ever learn? Rising walls and shutting people up are not good ways to build something - but only to destroy.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#935We can make burglary illegal without any additional explanation of why burglary is "wrong". This is because it is part of understanding the concept of burglary to know that it is wrong. It's the same sort of logic that applies to Nazi propaganda: it is wrong simply because it is Nazi propaganda. We understand what it is and what they are saying, so we do not need to go to additional lengths to explain why it is wrong…
Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence. - Louis Brandeis
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#936In return, CloudFlare's service provider immunity should be terminated. They've demonstrated that they do effectively control what happens with their networks and should not enjoy qualification for immunity.
What's the mechanism for this claim? Are you suggesting there was, previously, any uncertainty regarding Cloudflare's ability to (a) know which domains are hosted with them or (b) to look at those websites? Because it seems as if they have always had the ability to "control what happens with their networks".
Same mechanism for any internet service provider - immunity is granted under the auspice that you are not exerting control over the flow of information as a supposedly neutral provider. The second you don't do that, you're not neutral and you're aiding and abetting. This is how IXL Memphis got a big bite in their butt in the late late 90s.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#937Earlier quoted context omitted.
> if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. I'd go a step further. If cloudflare were a branch of the government like the literal internet police, then it would be immaterial if an entity claimed they supported them. The response would be to simply ignore or refute the claim, not demand that they withdraw i…
I have the right to police protection, but that doesn't mean I get to have a cop patrolling my building 24/7. That's why businesses hire private security. Likewise, DDoS is a crime and TDS has every right to present a criminal complaint. Cloudflare is just the Internet equivalent of private security.
Where that analogy fails is that IRL you still do enjoy police protection even if you can't afford private security. Even if they're not patrolling 24/7, the cops should still show up if someone's trying to burn down your unpopular place.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#938Earlier quoted context omitted.
Due process? For what? It's a private company, deciding to terminate the contract with a shitty customer that is ruining their image. Worst case scenario the Nazis might have a case for breach of contract, but they won't get much out of it. Also, I'd love to see them show up in court to try to defend this as a "freedom of speech" case, and get told what a bunch of abhorrent human beings they are and to GTFO.
The CEO's explanation includes a section titled "freedom of speech The CEO doesn't describe any process that Cloudflare intends to follow that will provide predictable decisions. So the original comment is correct: the explanation doesn't describe anything similar to due process, even though the CEO explicitly says that is/will be Cloudflare's guiding light. For what it's worth, I think Cloudflare has a strong argume…
Gotcha, when he said "due process" he didn't mean it in the legal sense, but in the "we have to follow the right procedures internally to make sure what we are doing is right" sense.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#939Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you being serious? Islam is based on doing horrible shit to infidels. That's the ideology, that's what the leadership believed and that's the reason why people were forced to join them. You're a hypocrite.
In the 5th or 6th century. Christians were doing the same in the middle ages. Is that true of the Islam and Christianity people follow today? No. Completely different when it's a modern ideology with people signing up today who want to see the extermination of minorities. Yeah sure, it's hypocritical for men to support feminism because Ugg dragged his woman by the hair. It appears you're trying to defend the indefens…
> In the 5th or 6th century. Christians were doing the same in the middle ages. Is that true of the Islam and Christianity people follow today? No.
All that is still there in the scriptures. Not many people are "doing horrible shit" to people in the name of those religions/ideologies today, sure (though do look at how the Islamic world treats apostates or women) - but nor are today's Nazis doing any extermination in practice. The idea that people in one movement whose core beliefs include support for genocide must really believe in it but people in another group whose core beliefs include support for genocide must be into it for other reasons seems rather dubious.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#940I'm Jewish, and a huge portion of my family was killed in the holocaust. Two great aunts were operated on by Dr. Mengele at Auschwitz. I hate and fear neo-nazis and people who ascribe to similar hateful, violent ideologies. I was shocked and scared by what I saw happened in Charlottesville. A small part of me even briefly fantasised about a modern day Inglorious Bastards. But I know freedom of speech needs protection…
I believe you have the right to express your views freely and I agree with you that violence on any end of the spectrum is unacceptable. Groups like Antifa and BLM have legitimate grievances which their violent actions completely undermine in my eyes. The narrative of the "middle class rural uprising" we've been presented with as the reason for Trump's election has, at its core, exposed perfectly understandable issues regarding middle American economic and political disenfranchisement, which have unfortunately been taken up as a banner by white supremacists, and twisted into a justification of their ideals.
However, I have to object to what I see as an attempt to portray yourself as a politically unbiased observer:
>Friends of mine are members of both Left and Right-wing political parties in my country, and I refuse to be associated with either, because parties and wings create division and move us further apart, and distract us from the same values that we do share.
Prior to this, you assert that "the Left" is "the only group wanting to stop freedom of speech, and impose tyranny on all others." Earlier, you refer to the "tyrannical Left" and mention that you consider James Damore to have been a victim of censorship, and their "(obviously) intellectually lazy and inaccurate narrative."
You may reject political parties but you appear to disagree with one ideological wing far less than the other. Such language only serves to poison the well, and encourage exactly the distraction and emotionally charged polarity you claim to oppose.