Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team • Hacker News Board

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#931

Post by masondixon » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 10:23 PM UTC

amykyta wrote: post #925

masondixon wrote: post #916

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are you agreeing with _anything_ feminists are saying? Nope. Women are well respected in society and now have more opportunities than men. There are many successful women, and women don't need a message from men saying that the system is rigged against them and they will not make it if they try. When there are as many women taking computer science at university, and seeking work in the computer science industry, an…

How can you say that when there are numerous examples of assault and discrimination? From the very obvious assaults by frat boys to the fact that if a couple wants to have a child the woman is the one who is forced to take a career hit. I don't buy the retort that a woman should choose whether she wants to pursue a career in corporate law or to have a child, that consideration never enters the picture for a man. Just…

> numerous examples of assault and discrimination

Yes there is no denying it that it happens. But its not a "rape culture" and is not as common as people make it out to be.

A rape accusation will utterly destroy someones life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattress_Performance_(Carry_Th...

But yes there are the terrible instances that occur: https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/heres-the-powerful-let...

> to the fact that if a couple wants to have a child the woman is the one who is forced to take a career hit

This is non-partisan, and is not a social justice issue, its a public policy issue. Both Clinton and Trump have plans: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/comparing-donald-trump-hillar...

> I don't buy the retort that a woman should choose whether she wants to pursue a career in corporate law or to have a child, that consideration never enters the picture for a man.

How do you change it though? This is simply a discussion for the couple to have.

> You may consider yourself an egalitarian but you can't be blind to the wider state of things. Have you considered that you may have a similar blindspot for other types of discrimination?

I am aware of it yes. I read a lot - but it comes across as overly-sensitive and I believe sensitivities are learned not innate. And a lot of people just want to pick a fight because they are angry.

The third-wave in your face blogging feminism is the wrong approach. It feels more like a way to gain power and influence than to actually make things better. It just drives discrimination underground.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#932

Post by prairiedogg » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 10:39 PM UTC

masondixon wrote: post #917

prairiedogg wrote: post #893

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi rubberstamp! I disagree that this thread is "just nitpicking each other" - I think it's been both educational and civil. For instance, when masondixon learned that Reagan had a political career before his presidency, masondixon thanked dbmikus for pointing it out. It's hard to find that level of candor on an internet discussion board - and masondixon seemed to want a genuine dialog that was free of the ad-hominem…

> It's hard to find that level of candor on an internet discussion board :'( It honestly makes me emotional to hear this as I realise how rare a dialog like this really is.

Now I'm getting the feels masondixon - thanks for being so open to a discussion.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#933

Post by ant6n » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 10:46 PM UTC

masondixon wrote: post #916

ant6n wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having trouble with this implied connection of corruption and feminists, 'sjws', etc. Another issue: are you agreeing with _anything_ feminists are saying?

> are you agreeing with _anything_ feminists are saying? Nope. Women are well respected in society and now have more opportunities than men. There are many successful women, and women don't need a message from men saying that the system is rigged against them and they will not make it if they try. When there are as many women taking computer science at university, and seeking work in the computer science industry, an…

"Feminism is the radical notion that women are people."

Do you agree with this basic sentiment? (I don't mean the definition of feminism, but the part where women are people)

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#934

Post by return0 » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 10:49 PM UTC

masondixon wrote: post #922

return0 wrote: post #874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should be very worried about the prospect of nationalist parties in europe. Unlike the US, nationalism in europe is deadly, very deadly. We should have a frank discussion about immigration and define our red lines in order to weaken this wave.

The thing is, these dangerous elements don't have any voice if there is not an issue in the first place. If the borders were controlled and immigration was regulated, then you have no Nazis gaining support. This is the side effect of these open borders policies in Germany. The liberal strategy is fundamentally flawed. Fighting racism through driving it underground is not the right approach. Its so sad.

Agree, but i hope some sense will be reinstated in europe. Merkel is the main culprit here and she is the one who will probably have to fix it.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#935

Post by masondixon » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 10:50 PM UTC

floodyberry- wrote: post #900

masondixon wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you were willing to potentially sacrifice women's rights, minorities rights, lgbt+ rights, the environment, business regulations, and whatever else conservative Trump appointments might do? You see how here you are saying that I am in favour of sacrificing womens, minorities, lgbt, etc. rights. You see how it is basically saying: You are are a sexist, misogynist, racist? Why don't you ask me what I think about thos…

> Why don't you ask me what I think about those issues? You didn't vote for your views, you voted for Trump. You had to believe that whatever would result from a Trump election was at least balanced by your desire to show the left the consequences of their free speech, yes?

> balanced by your desire to show the left the consequences of their free speech

There is no vengefulness here. We just wanted to be able to debate freely and openly without ad-hominem attacks all the time. Because we think that it is bad for the country.

If your freedom of speech is about shutting down the discussion by shaming people, then we will not reach a middle ground. So now we took complete power.

There are liberal policies I like, but now you get a mix of Republican policies I might not like.

The left polarised the country. The right is just trying to get by and talk about things.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#936

Post by Torgo » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 10:52 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #835

thecopy wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He has built no ideological framework for future policies Sounds like a positive thing

Thinking is impossible without ideology. You need some principles, otherwise you're just floating in empty space with no way to decide anything, because you couldn't even judge outcomes. His ideology is mostly "might is right". That's actually quite convenient, because it sanctions any outcome. Grandmother robbed at night? Why did you leave the house? Grandmother killed at home? Shoulda worked harder – winners can af…

what is the point of this. When one says he doesn't have much of an ideology, they mean he's not operating with a battleship of ideology like Marxism. He's not running events through a historical realism filter (and throwing errors when reality doesn't compute.) He seems closer to situational ethics. He knows he cares more about what's close than what's far, he cares more about how things affect where he lives than judging things according to some universal standard. If he doesn't see evidence that something is tangibly good for people he's around, he questions its value. I can see why this confuses the hell out of people, look at how he answers hypothetical questions and what people do with the answers. I'm not even saying this is a good thing, just that all these WEIRD - Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich people have convinced themselves he's some kind of alien because he doesn't get his values from a pedigreed abstract universal code that must explore every corner of the universe's decision tree and be able to prove its philosophically consistent, or it's shit.

Trump is probably gonna fail, if you want to stick it to him hold him accountable by his own standard. At the end of his term, you look at America and say Did you do it, Donald? Where are the jobs? Are people happier and more secure? Do they have better health care? The answer is probably going to be no. There's no internally consistent excuse he could give to this that wouldn't entail his own failure, because results were what mattered. so the only thing he could possibly say, and we already know this is, we could've won but we were sabotaged. So get ready for it, but remember it's gonna be hard to argue against because people will have fought against him, and what's worse they will have fought against him _on principle_, yet again caring more about the "integrity" of the system than the people the system was supposed to protect. Even if he loses and it can clearly be chalked up to his own bungling, he'll be able to point that out and sufficiently mask his own failures because of it.

I mean, this is a really bad situation, same as the election itself was: if he wins, then well, he wins, maybe he'll accomplish some good, but it's gonna come with a lot of bad. If he loses, it's still a sufficient indictment of the system that his criticism still stands. You people don't even realize how fucked you are. He is America's Destroying Angel. By the time he arrives, it's already too late.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#937

Post by masondixon » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 10:59 PM UTC

ant6n wrote: post #829

hamax wrote: post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You see how it is basically saying: You are are a sexist, misogynist, racist? Oh cry me a river. It's starting to look like your only debating tactic is "stop oppressing me". You said it yourself that you voted for quoting "a racist, sexist, misogynist, xenophobe" because "One side is for freedom of speech, the other side is for controlling what you can say." How is floodyberrys post not a fair representation of yo…

It does seem like that alt-right has basically appropriated the anti-oppression-speech of feminists and other civil liberty advocates, to construct the appearance of a minority of oppressed white men. It's a very frustrating process to see, and it's even more frustrating to have to tip-toe around white males who victimize themselves, as if they are actual minorities with long histories of oppression, like females, bl…

I cannot stand irrationality. I don't care who you are, what you look like, all we have is logic and reasoning.

I am not going to give someone the benefit of the doubt. If it doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense.

It is irrational because it caused them to lose control of the government.

This is the tough love approach and will help them become stronger in the future.

I don't think you realise how rare it is to find any kind of spokesperson for these groups who can make a good argument and debate someone else without resorting to calling someone a racist, sexist, etc. and deeming them not worthy of speaking to. They will grow up during the Trump years.

The liberals only offer short-term comfort, that will hurt them in the long run.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#938

Post by pryce » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 11:13 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #476

pryce wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call me when your American Left Wing creates a system where Christians, Republicans and Libertarians are forbidden to dine in restaurants because of their identity, or are prevented from using restrooms, or are afraid to call the police should they be victims of crime, because they expect that the police will either make things worse or at best not take their experience seriously. "just as guilty" is a false equivale…

For decades the strongest core of such policies you're describing was the southern Democrat.

I'm aware of that - but if we have to look over 50 years in the past to try to back up the claim that "the left and right are equally bigotted", then we should really just admit that claim doesn't have a factual basis at the time it was made.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#939

Post by masondixon » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 11:14 PM UTC

sosuke wrote: post #819

masondixon wrote: post #803

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha. Its such a waste of energy. There are real problems and its such a diversion. I think its social justice bikeshedding. Its easy and they think they are making a difference.

There isn't any contact info, your account is green (meaning shiny new) so this comment isn't related to your thread. However I just wanted to compliment you on your seemingly boundless reserves of patience while still taking the time to respond to questions. I've personally taken a silent stance on everything until I know enough to have a good discussion about things. It has been refreshing to read a perspective, yo…

Thank you.

Honestly, there is no way I would ever publicly say any of the things I have commented here for fear of retribution. Going anywhere near topics like racism, sexism, and xenophobia is outright scary in today's political landscape - especially in the tech world. Imagine living in a world where what you say could lose you friends, your reputation, your job, etc. The attacks on Thiel epitomise this. The US feels as polarised as ever.

I believe the silent Trump vote was very, very real. There is a huge response to the progressive movement that flies under the radar. All you have to do is venture into https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/ and watch Milo's college tour on YouTube and you will get a good sense of the silent Trump vote.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#940

Post by masondixon » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 11:24 PM UTC

mrgordon wrote: post #841

masondixon wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think that this kind of thing only happens on the right? You think that the right-wing parties are more wealthy than the left-wing parties? You are trying to confirm the "trump is bad" case. But when it is shown that Clinton is the same, and liberals are the same...we have to argue on a case-by-base basis...which is not as easy as calling out conservatives that you don't like. This is called bias.

I never said this only happens on the right (whether I think it occurs more on the right is a separate argument but not one that I made here). But the post I responded to was saying they voted for Trump (despite his repeated racism, sexism, and bullying) because the poster perceives the left as bullying. My point is simply that Trump and friends are serious bullies so this isn't a credible reason for choosing him ove…

AnimalMuppet is right.

The key is that the left's bullying aims to shut down the discussion.

The right's does not have the same objectives. It is simply for comedic value to add some flavour to an argument, and get some attention. Most of the time it is the right wanting to engage and debate, and the left refusing.