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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK votes to leave EU

#931

> What culture do Germans, Greeks, Latvians, Bulgarians, Fins, and Spaniards share? The one that used to be called the Roman Empire, then Christendom, and is now called Western Civilisation. It is also arguably the greatest achievement of the human species.

I'm sorry, but I think that trivializes huge chunks of history up to a point where it's more imprecise than correct.

I think the cultural roots go to Greece, not Rome. Rome basically was a logistical and administrative juggernaut but I'm not aware of anything new they created - Roman law being the only exception, I think, which created basis for the laws in a large group of european polities.

After Rome, there was the period which is called the dark ages, but probably mostly only looks like that in the context of the exceptional developments which started after it.

1400:s europe finally was done with dark ages, and the energetic cities embraced innovations from around the world (including material from greece antiquity preserved in the muslim civilization).

The catholic church did not really do much to help that progress. You will notice that e.g. industrialization was fastest in the countries where the church did not have as much power - the mostly protestant ones. Big parts of what we call 'western civilization' was innovated ny guys despite the stifling effect of the church on sapient inquiry.

In the border regions where a bunch of tiny polities that imitated and admired the developments of biggest neighbours.

My point is, just saying 'rome and christian culture' is giving undue prominence just to a one cultural development that moulded europe.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#932
For everything there is a season. Globalism had a great reputation at the turn of the millennium. Then we had Iraq, the Great Financial Crisis and Syria, which damaged the credibility of the leadership class. So now status quo in the west cannot be taken for granted.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#933

Of course. Civilisation is built with wars and by killing those who don't share the values of the majority. Why? Because if you don't do it, somebody else will do it to you. As simple as that. Pacifists are nuts.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11968503 and marked it off-topic.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#934

That's a very strange, and in some cases inaccurate, portrayal of history. * The British were not an external enemy. That would have been the French. For the most part, even the people leading the revolution were proud of being British subjects and would have liked to remain so, but could no longer tolerate the conditions being attached to that status. Our enemy was recognized to be our own cousins, not some external…

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11967608 and marked it off-topic.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#935

That's a very strange, and in some cases inaccurate, portrayal of history. * The British were not an external enemy. That would have been the French. For the most part, even the people leading the revolution were proud of being British subjects and would have liked to remain so, but could no longer tolerate the conditions being attached to that status. Our enemy was recognized to be our own cousins, not some external…

I wouldn't agree to your analysis. The French financed the US Independence movement. The Founding Fathers looked to the French for inspiration when drafting the US Constitution. From before its independence until roughly the Vietnam War, France was arguably the closest ally to the United States.

The shared dream did, indeed, mean exterminating the current residents. The current residents were often described in news accounts from the time as inhuman savages, not unlike how Africans were viewed. While it's not something I'd want to put forward as key to our identity, it most certainly was key to our identity. Predating the Manifest Destiny, the people of what the United States saw themselves as the right, God-given rulers of the land. It's disgusting, and lead to one of the few "successful" genocides in human history. But it most certainly did unite the early United States of America.

Shared culture? Yes, there were many different religions in the early United States. However, they all had a united cause--they were fleeing religious persecution in their home country. This includes the Catholics (fleeing England), Lutherans, Calvinists, Quakers, and Unitarians. It is so much a part of US history that the US Constitution guarantees religious freedom as its first Article. Religious freedom is at the very heart of the founding of the United States, and it is a result of this realization that many American immigrants were fleeing religious persecution in their country of origin.

So, basically, the differences between the US and the EU are exactly as the GP mentioned. They were very strong allies to France--the US constitution even includes almost direct quotes from French writers of the time; France both financed the US war of independence and the US bailed out France from the Napoleanic wars by purchasing the Louisiana Purchase. And while they didn't share the same religion, many fled from religious persecution--it was such a common cause that it was enshrined as the first Article to the US Constitution. The US was, indeed, actively engaged in genocide. This, at least, is one thing the US shared with Europe. Europe, from at least the time of the Crusades, but continuing through the slave trade and the many genocides in the 1800s and 1900s, most certainly shares this thread in common with the United States. Congratulations on making the point so clearly that the two cases, in this fashion, were very similar.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#936
post #681

On the contrary, historical perspective is essential in understanding the issues that the EU is going through currently. If the German leadership took a good look in the mirror, it would see that it is subjecting Greece to a replica of the Treaty of Versaille and, as a result, should expect similar consequences. The PR outfall of that debacle is probably what pushed the Brits to vote for exit.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11968162 and marked it off-topic.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#937

The English, even to this present day, are not known for being benevolent masters... but they are known for being violent ones, who will stop at nothing to satisfy their short term interests. How many nations have the English downtrodden? How many do they still try to intimidate, bluff, or put pressure on, even as ordinary citizens in management positions? Of small comfort then, is the fact that the English have abol…

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11968882 and marked it off-topic.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#938
post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

> When ... in one state of the US, you are ... granted [a] lot of fundamental rights and freedoms. In my eyes, the EU was very much about the same thing.

That is absolutely what the UK has never wanted from the EU. I would wager a good chunk of the Remain voters would have voted against a 'US of E'.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#939

> Young people are still building their lives, trying to establish their career. They're likely going to be denied the opportunity to live and work in 27 countries. Why? Do you think only EU citizens are allowed to live and work in the EU? Do you think British people are now banned from entry into the EU? Most people - young or old - do not even want to live and work in another European country. > I think it's pretty…

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We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11968904 and marked it off-topic.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#940
post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

That last paragraph is the clincher for me. A 60 year old is going to see maybe the next 20 years of long term effects pass them by in their old age. A 20 year old is going to see a lifetime of the consequences of this split, with special emphasis in their youth and entry in the job market and whatnot. Very very sad that the future of today's youth was just put in jeopardy. It crushes me to think of the hardships ahead.
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