The PyCon Incident • Hacker News Board

Re: The PyCon Incident

#921

Post by bird_in_hand » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 2:22 PM UTC

doktrin wrote: post #895

mcherm wrote: post #865

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You write: > All she had to do was turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes. But I think one of the important points here is that women should not NEED to turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes. The need to ask (or resign oneself to putting up with the hostile environment) is itself a burden. Would it be acceptable to make "dumb nigger" jokes as long as anytime an African American asks you…

> I am not arguing that they WERE making sex jokes, or that it rose to the level of a firing offense, just that "she could have asked us to stop" is not a good argument. What was the appropriate response, then? I honestly think assertive and honest feedback is often the most effective way to curb unwanted behavior. > But I think one of the important points here is that women should not NEED to turn around and ask the…

Tweeting a picture isn't a DEFCON 4 response. I don't really think that it's that problematic- they were breaking the rules of the conference that they had agreed to, and calling someone out publicly is a very common method of enforcing social norms. It's not necessarily the most nuanced or feel-good method, but it's not like they had an expectation of privacy while in a crowded convention room. The overreaction here came from the guy's company, and we really don't know the whole story there.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#922

Post by bird_in_hand » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 2:24 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #899

mcherm wrote: post #870

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was not "just anything", and all conference participants were on notice that this SPECIFIC behavior was prohibited at PyCon. Read the code of conduct for PyCon: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/ Not specifically the lines "Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue" and "Remember that harassment and sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes are not appropriate for PyCon."…

Just curious - do you read every word of every EULA you come across, or do you just get the gist of it? Also, "Remember that harassment and sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes are not appropriate for PyCon" doesn't appear to have anything to do with what the men said, though perhaps you quoted it for the subsequent harassment on twitter?

So the jokes weren't sexist. They were still sexual, which was still forbidden.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#923

Post by joshdotsmith » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 2:31 PM UTC

tom399 wrote: post #769

joshdotsmith wrote: post #668

I canceled my SendGrid in response. http://cl.ly/image/412O0S0Y003y I can't really consider developing for a company whose own evangelist might get me fired one day for something similarly trivial.

I hope you told them why you canceled.

Yes, I did.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#924

Post by jasonlotito » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 2:37 PM UTC

_ak wrote: post #916

jasonlotito wrote: post #857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/ Where does it say anything about someone's expressed permission? Doing a search on the page for several words did not bring up anything remotely close. Permission isn't even used.

"harassing photography or recording"

I read that part, which says nothing about what the person above me was saying.

This is the statement being contested:

> that very code says that you are not supposed to take a picture of someone without their express permission.

So, unless you can produce something that says this, it's a lie.

As for this:

> harassing photography or recording

It didn't happen.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#925

Post by jordan0day » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 2:40 PM UTC

mcherm wrote: post #865

georgeorwell wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is indecent is that Adria Richards completely invented the bit about forking being a sexual reference ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 ), escalated her discomfort to the level of internet drama, got her employer SendGrid to support her, and didn't exactly go out of her way to petition PlayHaven to unfire one of the two guys involved. And she's now sticking to her guns even after profusive apologies…

You write: > All she had to do was turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes. But I think one of the important points here is that women should not NEED to turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes. The need to ask (or resign oneself to putting up with the hostile environment) is itself a burden. Would it be acceptable to make "dumb nigger" jokes as long as anytime an African American asks you…

How do you not recognize you're conflating two entirely different things here?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#926

Post by mistercow » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 2:44 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #813

mistercow wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's right. A privately run conference asking attendees to behave professionally around other attendees is exactly like the KGB, and is a sure sign that we are sliding downward into totalitarianism.

This is going already too far, but anyway, here it goes. First of all, during the '80s (the time when I grew up) the KGB or the Securitate (the institution that was operating in my country) had already left their "harsh" methods behind, for the most part anyway, but they were instead operating through the peer pressure of those around you (friends, neighbors, strangers on the street, even close relatives). More exact…

Obviously I'm not arguing that Richards behaved appropriately in publicly shaming them. I'm saying that they behaved inappropriately in making the joke in the first place, and that there's nothing scary or totalitarian about a privately run conference having a code of conduct asking people to act professionally.

Of course, the proper way to handle this would have been for Richards to talk to someone running the conference. They would have then gone to the people who were making the inappropriate jokes and asked them to remember that this was a professional environment, upon which apologies would have been given, and that would have been the end of it.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#927

Post by a_c_s » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 2:48 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #207

numbsafari wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really so hard to not make sexual jokes and references when in a public business forum that you would honestly stop attending conferences? What exactly do they add to the discourse on the actual technical issues being discussed?

It's a bit dehumanizing to be forced to act like sexuality doesn't exist. This wasn't propositioning anyone, it wasn't insulting anyone, it wasn't explicit. It was a few lame jokes. I (personally) have no problem watching myself in these situations, but it always feels artificial. I'm not sure what American society is doing to women, but it leaves some of them incapable of dealing with any amount of sexuality. (Again…

Sex, religion, drugs & politics are all subjects that should stay out of the workplace.

You can participate in all of these activities outside of the workplace - that's not dehumanization, that's maturity and professionalism.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#928

Post by klez » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 2:48 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #95

SODaniel wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal vendetta or not. A person that reacts to a private conversation (inappropriate or not) by posting hearsay about two co-workers to 1000s of followers the way she did is NOT a person I would want to work with, even less hire. She has at the very least shown very bad judgement and should not be commended nor rewarded for it.

To nit on terminology: testifying about what you heard yourself is not "hearsay", by definition. I agree her judgement was bad and she shouldn't have posted the image (she has every right to post about the incident, though!). But what I'm reading here is an awful lot of bile about this woman. She's being asked to answer for someone else's decision to fire someone (there's still no documentation or testimony about thi…

From the comments I read thus far, it seems to me that most comment about "setting back women's right" come from women, not male geeks.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#929

Post by camelite » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 2:48 PM UTC

jasonlotito wrote: post #905

camelite wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, she's being to to speak up AND handle it behind the scenes. At what point in this conversation did you forget the fact that an identifiable picture was posted publicly to her 9000 followers?

> At what point in this conversation did you forget the fact that an identifiable picture was posted publicly to her 9000 followers? Never, and so what? This happens all the time at public events. Hell, the HN is generally in strong support of laws that uphold such a thing. Apparently, just when it happens to other people. > No, she's being to to speak up AND handle it behind the scenes. Going to address this here. U…

Right, my personal belief from the various accounts is that what happened was so innocuous as to not warrant any reaction. I'll freely admit I'm reading between the lines and extrapolating.

If it did warrant a reaction I don't think there was any onus on her to literally speak up ('hey cut that st out!') and I'd have no problem if she had simply informed staff and allowed them to handle it, followed by an anonymised account.

However what she did by tweeting a publicly identifiable picture and following it up with further calumny on her blog is absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the reporting procedure, which it appears she did actually follow in addition to going public. Why does she deserve forgiveness when her first public statements compounded her error and she has yet to apologise or express remorse?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#930

Post by klez » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 2:51 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #147

princess3000 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's private about a conversation taking place in a busy ballroom at a convention, within full earshot of (probably) dozens of people?

Actually according to Adria's blog post (linked elsewhere in the thread) the jokes were made in response to a comment about "forking" a repo from the person sitting next to them. They were riffing off of a conversation she was part of; assuming you believe her, that's "non-private" regardless of context. This whole thread is making me sad.

From that same post I got that the two guys where talking, SHE interjected and then the joke was made by one of those guys (to me it isn't clear if she was still part of the conversation, but that's beyond the point).