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U.S. science is in chaos

scientificamerican.com

921–930 of 1001 posts

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#921
post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Higher intangible quality of life, lower spending power. There are a lot of QOL advantages to living in a less violent, less polarized, less cruelty-driven society that isn't actively trying to dismantle all of its institutions and destroy itself. Especially if you're one of those people who are in the crosshairs of jack-booted thugs and their cheerleaders.

He said Canada man. If you had other reasonable options when leaving you wouldn't pick it so lets not pretend anyone moving there from the USA didn't fail already.

Eh? I've got a relative who moved there after years of working there on a visa under a mid-6-figures job.

Did you know: some people like Canada?

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#922

I would have supported reforming the way science is funded in the US, but the way republicans did it is far worse than if they had done nothing at all.

What's a better way, that's not the Chinese way? What I mean is more centralized oversight over research priorities, metric-driven rewards, and preference for political favorites?

More decentralized decision-making (in the hands of universities and institutes), requirements for permanent positions as a requirement for funding, more funding of individuals and programs rather than projects, more randomized funding (lotteries etc), requirements for trainee positions to be tied to projected permanent positions, more early career development and retraining funding, etc etc etc.

The traditional model was actually pretty solid: a decentralized system focused on universities and institutes with lots of independent funding of individuals, with protection of those individuals. The shift toward funding of universities by a centralized institution (the US federal government) based on temporary projects with no protection of the individuals behind the projects, led to the pyramid schemes and vulnerable attention-seeking that you see now.

Academics in the US has been a tinder box for years. This past year or so has been like setting fire to the tinder box rather than cleaning up the fire hazard.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#923

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered the fact the majority of the US is not designed for public transit, or it doesn’t exist at all? Most cities aren’t even walkable let alone practical for bike transit due to long distance commutes and lack of infrastructure?“hurrr americans are just addicted to cars” is a really reductive take.

Actually, American roads are excellent for cycling. Same for public transport. After Vietnam, many accessibility features for folks in wheelchairs were mandated, this also favours the bicycle. Grades in America are excellent for cycling. If you a mere mortal, going over an Alp in Europe will take all day and leave you pretty much unable to do much the following day. Meanwhile, in the USA, you can cycle over the major…

> Actually, American roads are excellent for cycling. Same for public transport.

where?

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#924

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Academic experience typically doesn't count." Why not?

> Why not? Weird egos. I moved from academia to industry and constantly got told "In industry we just care that 'it works'". I thought that was a weird premise, given... you know... who doesn't? But the more time I spent in industry the more time I found that they in fact do not care if it actually works. What seems to matter more is the politics and about "working"[0] the right way using the right new buzzword[1] Tr…

  > Fun fact, my boss also loved to tell me about how dumb academia is because they never do anything useful and how industry makes all the real advancements.
It has always seemed clear to me that the world requires two types of people.

1. "Thinkers", those extraordinarily brilliant people who spend lots of time on a single problem, discovering the optimal and most performance theoretical solution

2. "Hackers", who assemble tools by implementing designs from "Thinkers"

Without Thinkers the Hacker could not possibly solve all required problems well a single tool/product requires

Without Hackers the Thinkers work would languish in the ivory tower it was conceived in

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#925
post #828

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we agree. I certainly agree with what you've written. You may not agree with my opinions, and that's fine. In any case, you've inspired me to post the original reply I had composed for https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48575653 (the immediate parent to your comment), below. This is what I wanted to say, before then deciding to just be grateful for the sharing of the parent's perspective: """ I'd frame AI a…

> Not just sort of expensive (though not very, compared with other budget items). But more importantly: inefficient (to put it nicely). And more importantly still: often (perhaps more often than not!) plain wrong. And that means, sadly: fairly/largely ineffective (degree depending on the domain) This represents a fundamental misunderstanding of "science." Science is not experiments and papers. Science is a set of met…

Heard from some friends & accomplished scientists at a national lab: "if we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research"

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#926

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, interest payments, UFC fight night flyovers, ballrooms, wars, tax cuts. I would go as far as to say that the only things getting reduced funding are education and science research, but that’s just a hunch.

you listed some rounding errors

Interest payments, wars, tax cuts are rounding errors?

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#927

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US citizen moves to Canada on a CUSMA visa: - 30-50% pay cut - points and lottery based immigration system that penalizes them for each year you age after 30 - frequent unfavorable rule changes - fear of being trapped forever on a temporary visa and eventually sent back to the USA, poorer than their peers who stayed stateside. Canadian citizen moves to us on equivalent CUSMA visa: - huge pay raise - retire back home…

>US citizen moves to Canada on a CUSMA visa: - 30-50% pay cut But what about "free healthcare". Don't americans want socialized healthcare over their despised privatized system? > - points and lottery based immigration system that penalizes them for each year you age after 30 Many countries with socialized healthcare do this. They only want young people and don't want older people who are a risk at becoming a burden…

The free healthcare only matters if you get permanent residency.. Otherwise, it's just like the world's most expensive insurance plan thanks to the pay cut.

In terms of people in the tech industry I know of who moved to Canada from countries where they get a legitimate pay boost there.. Yes, it makes sense for them. If they never attain permanent residency, at least they made more money than they would have back home for a few years.

However, I've rarely seen one of them turn down a chance to get an additional huge pay boost by moving to the United States afterwards. In fact, it's common for top tier companies to just use Canada as of sort of waiting room or fallback option for folks who are ultimately dreaming of moving to the US to make those higher salaries.

I don't think Canada can compete on pay, but there are certainly people who could get that top pay but would trade it for a chance to live permanently in Canada. I'm guessing those are the sorts of people who have already taken pay cuts to work in highly specialized or speculative areas of science and technology. These are great people to have because they are low risk and high reward in terms of impact on the economy.

Sadly, if you look at any forum for Canadian immigrants you'll find a huge amount of depressing stories about never attaining permanent residency or of grinding for years to game the point system in a way that is soul crushing. It is a broken system on both sides. Let me try to explain what I mean by that.

The European Union does not have a points and lottery based system as it's sole mechanism of entry the way Canada does. If you make above a certain salary, you can get a blue card. You can accumulate time on the blue card in any country in the EU (except for Ireland, which has their own similar system if I recall). After 5 years you can typically apply for permanent residency, in Germany just 2 years so long as you attain B1 German (very practical for usage in daily life and doable in the timeframe without cramming or cutting corners).

The implicit reasoning seems to be that if you can stay out of trouble and earn a good living for 5 years. You're probably worth keeping around. I think a heuristic like that beats a point system which simply encourages gaming behavior anyway.

Check out all of the people cramming French to try to increase their odds in the Canadian lottery for example. Canada probably doesn't get the sorts of genuine francophones they seem to be looking for--cramming for an exam with a verbal component is not the same as fluency--and the people entering the country are doing so by playing arbitrary games instead of living a real life.

And of course the French is just one example, there are also all of the useless courses and degree programs. The points-based lottery encourages and rewards the accumulation of arbitrary points, or in other words, a sort of dissimulation.

I suppose you could argue that Canada is selecting for people who are willing to diligently jump through hoops. If so, that does nothing to address brain drain.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conservatives have been basically purged from academia over the last 30 years, Any citations on this?

Sure https://www.aei.org/articles/partisan-professors/ I'd be shocked to find anyone surprised by this.

FTA

> The lack of diversity among professors is problematic for both education and research, ostensibly the overriding purposes of universities.

I basically did a spit-take here. Lack of diversity is suddenly--and only--a problem when it doesn't include conservatives.

The funny thing is that racial and cultural diversity is higher amongst faculty than the general population. For decades America has attracted the brightest and highest-achieving college students and researchers from around the world, and those people eventually get faculty positions and advance their careers. It has gotten to the point that we hear people (usually conservatives) complain that some fields are dominated by non-white people.

And shock, as it turns out, American conservative viewpoints are actually a minority in the world. If higher education were actually representative of world population, 1/5 would be Chinese, 1/5 would be Indian, 1/5 European, and only 1/20 would even be American. If we were generous and say that half of America is conservative (it's not), then only 1/40 would be an American conservative. Most people in the world are not American conservatives. This is just a fact. They say that reality has a liberal bias. For the record, I don't believe it has a liberal bias, because American liberalism is just a weird grab bag of outposts on the cultural war front, but reality absolutely does not support a rightwing view.

We hear conservatives whine and moan about diversity exactly when it suits them, and we've all seen just exactly how they feel about diversity.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#929

Earlier quoted context omitted.

social security and medicare?

reparations to Iran

tbf, it's unclear to me at this point how much of that is going to represent $$ out of the American pocket. A lot of it is "guarantees of financing and investment" by other gulf states. Probably we're subsidizing Iran re-investment, and the costs of that are intentionally ambiguous.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#930

My wife operates an optical trap (a sophisticated microscope, she uses it for studying gene/dna physical properties) and she's pretty good at working with that instrument. The number of people good at working that microscope are in the ballpark of 2000 (+- 1000) in the world! She has cried a lot in the last one year for the mess science research has become. We are moving out of the country at the end of August.

When words lose their meaning, people lose their freedom. -Confucius I've read that asia is leading the world in scientific discoveries and therefore Mandarin gets the naming rights. That's privilege and the reason English is fleeting

> When words lose their meaning, people lose their freedom. -Confucius

I don't think I believe that this is a real Confucius quote.

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