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Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

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Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#921

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the hidden reason why the American alt-right/far-right/MAGA/techbro types hate the EU with so much apoplectic rage. For all its problems, big-picture-like it actually works to gradually coalesce a huge rich continent with a bigger population than the US into something increasingly more coherent, and if it continues to work it will mean that the Western world now has two heavyweight leaders, not one. F…

Don’t make shit up about people you don’t understand. >American alt-right/far-right/MAGA/techbro Bucketing these all together doesn’t even make sense. A “techbro” has completely different reasons to dislike the EU (regulatory regime unfriendly to tech startups) than some MAGA focused on US competitors. As someone from the tech industry, I’m disappointed in the EU as it falls further and further behind on innovation.…

I didn't bucket the haters, I bucketed the latent reason for their hatred.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#922

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not far, but the EU trap is about the ceiling, it's about how far Poland can potentially go.

If there is such a ceiling (clearly, I doubt it, seeing many of the main German industry leaders going down or offshore, so there is plenty space to grow), it is not of the EU's doing. It it about money and the advantages large incumbents have in our version of market capitalism.

DE still collects checks from global champions offshoring. Offshoring "fine" as long as money flows back to HQ. Allowing peripheral competitors to take your rent on the other hand less fine. The ceiling is EU's doing - it's EU legislation which does not allow member states to adopt the tier of subsidies/industrial policies to build competitors that can rival EU incumbents. Which can lose out to competitors with greater leverage (i.e. US), but unlikely to Poland. Of course cannot say it's impossible, but we have not seen case in modern economic history where global strategic champions arise without massive subsidies/protectionism, the type EU blocks within bloc to lock in existing hierarchy.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#923

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the need to correct the record. The only reason, there is this racist stereotype in some western countries that such and such ethnicities are not working, is because those countries make it exceedingly hard for those ethnicities to gain employment. For example requiring language fluency and forcing immigrants to attend language school full time instead of giving them a mop and a bucket and a minimum wage. In p…

Some cultures legitimately are less hard working though. Ironically most of these cultures are western, the biggest examples are southern European cultures. As far as immigrants though, approximately 100% of them wish to be productive members of society, I agree. You dont go through the effort of emigrating without an entrepreneurial spirit.

>the biggest examples are southern European cultures

Source for that statement? Because I see the opposite.

https://landgeist.com/2023/09/02/annual-working-hours-in-eur...

>approximately 100% of them wish to be productive members of society

Oh honey.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#924
post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you got it backwards. Over the last 20 years, the SLD govt used to literally sell new legislation for bribes, PO (currently in charge of Poland) literally has right now a guy in their ranks who has likely stolen 100s of millions PLN from a public company, but is the prime minister’s BFF so the prosecutor canceled the investigation. The stuff PiS has done is nothing compared to those. I actually think that the…

Yes. Piss is holier than holy and didnt run Justice Fund as its own private piggy bank stealing for PIS election campaigns and surveillance software to intercept PO politicians private communications. There is no reason whatsoever for former PIS prosecutor general last 7 months hiding in Hungary together with his co criminal deputy Marcin Romanowski who has been hiding there for almost two years. Former state-owned O…

It’s still nothing compared to the other things I mentioned.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#925
post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Piss is holier than holy and didnt run Justice Fund as its own private piggy bank stealing for PIS election campaigns and surveillance software to intercept PO politicians private communications. There is no reason whatsoever for former PIS prosecutor general last 7 months hiding in Hungary together with his co criminal deputy Marcin Romanowski who has been hiding there for almost two years. Former state-owned O…

It’s still nothing compared to the other things I mentioned.

Nothin. Like selling (for bribes) Visas to Africans while simultaneously using same Africans to ferment anti immigration sentiment in its own electorate. Like selling huge amount of Orlen assets to Saudis (no doubt huge bribe). Covid respirators and masks scams, not to mention covid bribes. Koreans are also pretty famous for giving bribes and there has been a ton of shenanigans with military contracts including delaying 155mm production by two years because correct PIS people didnt get bribed https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/oni-sa-z-pis-a-wy-... Then we got Mariusz Kamiński and Maciej Wąsik $multi million land scandal. The list of PIS scheming is quite long.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#926
Visited Poland in the 2000s, while there were still plenty of tokens of poorness visible. Eating out cost a third of what it cost in Germany. I remember that rain water would drop on our commie bloc hostel beds from the ceiling, even though there were still three floors above us.

I'm sure many of those tokens are gone by now. While the Poles I've worked with are on average very capable and driven, there is also the bigger picture: That they have a national ambition.

Can only guess, but it seems they know that Poland must outperform its biggest two neighbours (DE & RUS) in order to retain their freedom. Given the current state of these neighbours this fear may seem to be blown out of propotions, but history is the better guide here.

Given that ambition I would guess the population is less devided on economic and trade issues, specifically with regards to Europe/International. The need to join the Euro is certainly less present there and in hindsight might be another part of Poland's success.

Poland tries to be a serious nation at least. Which can't be said about Germany and its self-inflicted demise on almost every measruable front, ie the woke mind virus.

Fun fact: German IT magazine Heise in light of the sluggish German job market recently published an article about moving abroad for jobs, ie. to Poland https://www.heise.de/ratgeber/Auswandern-nach-Polen-Was-ITle...

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#927

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same story in Lithuania

The Baltic states are a pretty odd mix, Estonia could be any western European country while Latvia next door still feels in places like the Red Army has only just pulled out. It was quite a jolt going from one to the other. Mind you since we'd started from Russia both of them looked pretty good in comparison, that place was dire.

Dude has not been to Narva lol

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#928
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there are plenty of countries that aren't facing those conditions now, or in the recent past and still have shitty economies. It undersells how hard it is to build a strong economy and therefore undersells how hard Poland has worked.

being in the trade union helps, especially when for most part it was "cheap labour" for that union

You can provide cheap labor inside of a trading block and still be economically a mess, Mexico comes to mind and Turkey was sending workers to parts of Europe starting in the late 1940s. Poland did a lot more than just supply cheap labor, and it really undersells all of the work they've put in to develop their work force, education, economic policies, and so on.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#929
post #740
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First time I hear this explanation of why demographics is in decline in Europe and it kind of makes sense, every so often having this discussion about having children people bring up that they wont be able to enjoy things anymore, like travel, which in itself is a form of consumerism - buying the "experience"

This is very simplistic and I would say there is more reason than only consumerism. People still might have kids they just have it less - they are happy to have only one kid because they fill fulfilled and also they cannot afford 2 or 3. Standard and expectation also increased and even thought I grew up with 2 siblings in 2 bedroom apartment in Poland today nobody would want that - or good luck finding a partner that…

The things you list as ostensibly different from consumerism are for the most part consequences and manifestations of consumerism. They are downstream from the consumerist ethos. So these are superficial distinctions.

Inquire into the causes. For example, why do people say they can't afford more children? Materially, we're the wealthiest we've ever been in human history. We are in the best possible position in human history to afford more children. The problem is that we have different priorities. Consumerism shifts our valuations.

Consider also the parabolic distribution of fertility. Who is having the most children and the least in developed consumerist countries? The poor and the rich are having the most. The rich, because within the consumerist calculus, the cost of raising children are minuscule as a fraction of their total wealth, even given their high material standards. The poor, because they can't compete in the consumerist game anyway (social programs that enable the poor to have more children, and perhaps a greater average religiosity, are also contributing factors; the latter shifts valuation).

The people having the fewest number of children are the middle class, because the middle class has just enough money to gain access to the fruits consumerism offers, but not enough to accommodate both the consumerist indulgence of them and large families.

This is where "keeping up with the Joneses" is most prevalent. This is where you find the most careerism; the poor don't have careers, and the rich don't need them. The middle class - perhaps especially the upper middle class - is in the fierce competition for marginal and petty gains of status over their middle class peers, and in a consumerist society, that is tied to spending on things other than what enables a family to have more children (costs whose growth, by the way, is logarithmic, not linear). The upper middle class is also perhaps best equipped to craft elaborate rationalizations for their lack of fecundity.

So you have to look at things systematically and in a systemic way.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#930

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give examples of western countries other than the US doing that? I’ve never seen it, I travel a lot.

Wow, since you're so well travelled you can also share examples of the US doing it, with the comparison to these other amazing utopian western countries. Start with education spending per capita.

> Start with education spending per capita

If you think spending per capita is a measure of quality, I’ve got a great health insure scam to sell you!

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