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Streaming services are driving viewers back to piracy

theguardian.com

921–930 of 960 posts

Re: Streaming services are driving viewers back to piracy

#921
post #917

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So when someone takes something of value > it is essentially taking something of value Intellectual property is not "taken". It is not a tangible good that can change hands. Copies are made instead. Copyright refers to the right to make copies. Having a copyright means having the right to make copies. To infringe someone's copyright is to make copies despite the right to make copies belonging to someone else. The w…

Sigh, I knew the word "take" would invoke pedanticity... So when you "take interest" or "take advantage" or "take a look" or "take your time", what tangible good is being "taken"? When you "take pleasure in something", like say a TV show, you are deriving value from it. What tangible goods are involved here? When somebody provides you a service -- say washing your car -- you are still taking value from it even withou…

It's not "pedanticity", it's that the facts matter and you are wrong.

We've seen this tactic before: proponents of draconian copyright laws intentionally conflated "copying" (as in the digital world) with "theft" (as in "you wouldn't steal a car" -- are you familiar with this campaign from 2004 that largely backfired?).

So that's why words matter. You are misusing them in a way that has been weaponized in the past, which is why I and many others are vigilant and quick to correct you.

Re: Streaming services are driving viewers back to piracy

#923

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Overall, humanity (aka the actual "we") has picked the former over the later. Did humanity really pick that? I doubt it. Copyright infringement happens too often and too normally for me to believe people care about copyrights. Politicians bought and paid for by lobbyists picked that. Anyway, I'll go ahead and expicitly pick the latter over the former. I would rather have the nonexistence of ideas over infinite mono…

>Did humanity really pick that? I doubt it. Copyright infringement happens too often and too normally for me to believe people care about copyrights. Politicians bought and paid for by lobbyists picked that. Let's focus on the overall idea. IP. not the instantiations of the idea like patents and copyright. You're against the very idea of ideas as property. And YES humanity chose the concept of IP. It's encoded into t…

> Human nature is prehistoric instincts for hunter gatherers. Capital, profit, business and centralization of power is responsible for the ideas responsible for human civilization as we know it.

You state this as fact, but the anthropological consensus doesn't agree with this.

Early hunter gatherer societies are thought to have been communal, with no notion of property. It's not "human nature".

> How do you mobilize thousands of humans to create a boeing 747 which is unionization of multitudes of people crystallizing ideas and focusing human effort to creating a feat of an idea that no single human can create? Capital and centralization of power.

This is an ideological argument, which is fine, but nothing anywhere close to "the truth", and especially, not the only or best way to organize things.

You want to have this argument, fine, but you'll have to step down from the teaching desk and accept your belief is not universal.

Re: Streaming services are driving viewers back to piracy

#924
post #923

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Did humanity really pick that? I doubt it. Copyright infringement happens too often and too normally for me to believe people care about copyrights. Politicians bought and paid for by lobbyists picked that. Let's focus on the overall idea. IP. not the instantiations of the idea like patents and copyright. You're against the very idea of ideas as property. And YES humanity chose the concept of IP. It's encoded into t…

> Human nature is prehistoric instincts for hunter gatherers. Capital, profit, business and centralization of power is responsible for the ideas responsible for human civilization as we know it. You state this as fact, but the anthropological consensus doesn't agree with this. Early hunter gatherer societies are thought to have been communal, with no notion of property. It's not "human nature". > How do you mobilize…

>You state this as fact, but the anthropological consensus doesn't agree with this.

Yes it does. This is anthropology 101. In hunter gatherer societies wealth doesn't really exist. People eat and get resources off the land without ever really accumulating wealth. For civilization to form, first wealth must evolve into a form where it is abundant, identical and useable like coins.

So like grain when extremely abundant naturally maps into something like coins where people instead of bartering can "pay" others with grain and save up on grain. If humans begin farming and then grain becomes very abundant in society, something changes.

It then becomes possible for the accumulation of resources by a central source as in one person owns more grain than another person. Wealth inequality so to say. When one person is much more wealthy than another, this allows him to gain a sort of artificial power over others by employing others and paying them a salary. This CAN only exist if some static countable resource exists that can function in place of a monetary denomination.

This is ultimately what causes people to coordinate. No amount of leadership or charisma is going to herd humans into a organized team of hundreds to build projects as complex as a boeing 747. You HAVE to pay people for this to happen. You have to offer them something that benefits them that's more then just your charisma.

These are the projects that define civilization.

This is IN FACT the anthropological consensus on how civilization forms in academia. I'm not making this up. Go read up on it, this is how they believe advanced civilization formed in some places and didn't in others. So places that are really tropical tend not to form advance civilization because things like grain rot. This prevents anyone from accumulating resources which prevents wealth inequality which prevents a single individual coordinating other individuals to create the public works that define modern civilization as we know it.

>Early hunter gatherer societies are thought to have been communal, with no notion of property. It's not "human nature".

You're describing tribes and hunter and gatherers. I'm describing civilization. The next step. Mesopotamia. The progression from tribes and cavemen to civilization involves the steps I describe above.

Also I'm not calling "civilization" natural. Nothing of the sort. The times we live in are not natural at all. Modern civilization is NOT natural. But. Capitalism, wealth inequality and business DOES form the basis of civilization as we know it. In short, IP is fundamental to civilization, but it is not necessarily natural. I am more appealing to whether you value the idea of civilization itself, and less to whether something is compatible to human nature in its earliest form as these are two orthogonal concepts.

>This is an ideological argument, which is fine, but nothing anywhere close to "the truth", and especially, not the only or best way to organize things.

Ideological my ass, there's barely any evidence of complex projects forming out of pure communal goodwill. The only time I've seen people do something like this of equal complexity out in the wild is Linux. And it only happened because Linux is uniquely a software project which is very cheap to develop for. And EVEN then open source developers for linux need corporate jobs in order to get paid a living wage so that they can afford to have spare time working on a charity project like Linux. Linux exists because developer time working on Linux is paid for by FOR-profit corporations.

>You want to have this argument, fine, but you'll have to step down from the teaching desk and accept your belief is not universal.

It's not a belief. That's what you're missing. The logic composes into a singular conclusion. I'm right. You may not agree with me now and that's just part of human nature. Maybe think about it for a couple months and eventually you may hit the realization that your idea of how the world works was a little off. Yeah I know I'm an asshole for sort of bluntly burying everyone I see with the brutal truth, but think about it for a bit.

Re: Streaming services are driving viewers back to piracy

#925
post #920
post #915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, I thought we decided we were using the word "theft" informally. Like all those examples I posted above and you agreed with. What is being "taken" in "wage theft" or "identity theft" or "joke theft"? > This conversation was settled, whether you like it or not. Ignoring salient points does not settle a conversation. I laid out the case point-by-point for why not returning fair value when taking something of value…

> Wait, I thought we decided we were using the word "theft" informally. Nope. We were discussing with someone else (before you chimed in) who argued it was exactly theft . When shown this was false, the person argued it was morally equivalent (this was also false). > Again, if you want to nitpick over the word "theft" look at the long list of examples I posted above I'm not nitpicking, you're factually wrong. Have yo…

>When shown this was false, the person argued it was morally equivalent (this was also false).

This is an utter lie. Not just false. But dishonest. Nothing was shown. What happened was, the person (me) stated regardless of whether or not it's theft or not, none of your logic works. It doesn't matter if it's theft, it's just pedantic bullshit on your part, so why don't we just go with it to move the argument forward.

Why did you lie here? Obviously because you're wrong and covering shit up.

>I'm not nitpicking, you're factually wrong.

Whether or not your nitpicking, when everyone sees you talk you look like your nitpicking and being overly pedantic about everything. Let's keep the argument moving forward and just say what you're doing is morally and ethically equivalent to nitpicking. Whether it's actually definitionally nitpicking doesn't matter.

>Have you read important works about the distinction, such as Lessig's "Free Culture"?

Yes, I’ve read Free Culture. But have you read the works of Dr. Emilia Hartmann (‘The Myth of Cultural Lock-In: Reassessing Intellectual Property Narratives’, 2009), or Professor Takuya Nishimura’s ‘Property, Commons, and the Illusion of Freedom’ (Oxford Review of Law and Policy, 2013)? These, along with Michael D. Carroway’s ‘The Economics of Restriction: Why Free Culture Fails the Creative Class’ (Cambridge Digital Law Journal, 2015), systematically dismantle Lessig’s assumptions. Even more directly, the anthology edited by Sophie R. Klein and David M. Torres, ‘Beyond Free Culture: Regulation, Autonomy, and the Digital Public’ (2017), is often cited as the definitive rebuttal.

I mean if you read even one of these things, you'll know you're severely misinformed.

>It's frustrating because this is akin to discussing, yet again, the moral panics of the olden days, long settled but (apparently) brand new generations without an understanding of the past want to resurface them.

The past is the one that's irrelevant. Times have changed. You're still walking 10 miles to get to school while the rest of the world now drives cars. Wake up.

Re: Streaming services are driving viewers back to piracy

#926
post #921
post #917

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh, I knew the word "take" would invoke pedanticity... So when you "take interest" or "take advantage" or "take a look" or "take your time", what tangible good is being "taken"? When you "take pleasure in something", like say a TV show, you are deriving value from it. What tangible goods are involved here? When somebody provides you a service -- say washing your car -- you are still taking value from it even withou…

It's not "pedanticity", it's that the facts matter and you are wrong. We've seen this tactic before: proponents of draconian copyright laws intentionally conflated "copying" (as in the digital world) with "theft" (as in "you wouldn't steal a car" -- are you familiar with this campaign from 2004 that largely backfired?). So that's why words matter. You are misusing them in a way that has been weaponized in the past, w…

>We've seen

This is what bugs me about you. Who is "we"? It's like you're calling "we" the rest of the free world. Be real, most people aren't on your side.

"We" in reality is just a small group of fanatical FSF members vs. The rest of the entire world.

Re: Streaming services are driving viewers back to piracy

#927

i wish we could go back to a pre-streaming version of netflix. the near-infinite library and lack of algorithmic nudging resulted in an era where i had healthy view habits. reasonable levels of screentime and VERY diverse content. i add so many movies to my queue with the best intentions of watching them someday, but always put them off because something about staring at that endless scroll of options makes me crave…

I was wondering recently whether someone could conceivably start a disk-in-the-mail Netflix again, now that streaming sucks so much and every publisher seems to want their own streaming service. My understanding (possibly wrong, I'm not an expert) is that it's perfectly legal to lend out physical media without any special permission from the publisher under the first-sale doctrine, so it seems like the only way to bu…

Before someone comes in and says something moronic (because physical media isn't a VC funded B2B SaaS business), I'd like to remind everyone that Redbox was going strong until Chicken Soup for the Soul bought them. Even in the late 2010s when streaming was really taking off, you could often go down to your local corner store and rent a DVD or BluRay out of a Redbox machine.

The only reason people went to streaming in the first place was that Netflix was cheap and, arguably, a heavily subsidized monopoly in the streaming space.

So yeah, some kind of DVD/BluRay business could very well work in the US and Canada.

Re: Streaming services are driving viewers back to piracy

#928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like we've had at least two lost decades of good content. It's probably somewhere, I just haven't found it yet.

In my humble opinion, some "good content": Netflix: * Dark * Fisk * Adolescence * Ripley * The Queen's Gambit * Ozark * Baby Reindeer * Easy Apple TV: * Black Bird * The Studio * Severance * Shrinking * Ted Lasso HBO: * The Wire * Oz * True Detective (S1 at least) * The Sopranos * Big Love * Rome * In Treatment * Succession * Deadwood * Insecure Misc: * Colin From Accounts * Black Sails * Mad Men * Breaking Bad * Bet…

Paramount+

* Star Trek everything (except Section 31 - worse than Star Trek V)

* South Park specials

* Frasier sequel

* Beavis and Butthead revival

Re: Streaming services are driving viewers back to piracy

#929

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Did humanity really pick that? I doubt it. Copyright infringement happens too often and too normally for me to believe people care about copyrights. Politicians bought and paid for by lobbyists picked that. Let's focus on the overall idea. IP. not the instantiations of the idea like patents and copyright. You're against the very idea of ideas as property. And YES humanity chose the concept of IP. It's encoded into t…

> You're against the very idea of ideas as property. And YES humanity chose the concept of IP. Humanity chose the fruits of intellectual property. More books. More movies. More music. More art. More inventions. More technology. More everything. Humanity chose wealth. Time limited monopolies were merely the means to bring about such wealth creation. Monopolies are universally understood to be a bad sign in every econo…

>By actually manufacturing and selling aircrafts to airlines? 747s are not infinitely copyable. Discussion has now shifted from ideas to tangible objects.

The raw materials used to create a boeing 747 are not rare at all. They are easily accessible. The aggregate value of material cost of a 747 is significantly less than the actual value of the 747 itself meaning that much of the worth of the 747 is in the crystallization of the idea of what a 747 is. The 747 is at it's core an idea, that's what separates it from just being a just a mishmash of random materials. It is at it's core an IP.

Yes it's not infinitely copyable so it doesn't suffer from the ill effects of software. But they are one in the same, it's just that the 747 has additional protections of the "idea" being encrypted into the plane itself and the people who make the plane. Software the idea is fully crystallized into a single place: the source code and it suffers from being easily copied.

This is where IP law comes from. The idea of a 747 is by nature not easily copied, so people didn't need to instantiate the concept of IP because by default it's just harder to copy. IP was invented because of the distinction between ideas that are easily copied and not easily copied. People wanted to bring the properties of the 747 to software.

>Remains to be seen. There should be no functional difference between raising hundreds of millions from venture capitalists or crowdfunding. We just need to find ways to raise these platforms to the billion dollar scale.

I think we're in agreement. We agree on the benefits and downsides of IP. You just think that altruism could function just as well as the incentives created by IP and it seems you're clear that there is currently no evidence to support your hypothesis other than a smattering of freak anomalies like Linux. Whether that evidence will materialize in the future remains to be seen.

Re: Streaming services are driving viewers back to piracy

#930

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We don't recognize ownership of ideas as a legitimate concept. Who is this "we" you're referring to? As far as I know it's you and your 2 or 3 online pen pals because the rest of the world recognizes it as a legitimate concept such that it's been encoded into law and billions and billions have been invested into said said ideas on the assumption that those laws will provide the idea creators with "ownership" of said…

Copyright abolitionists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_abolition I have no "pen pals" from this site. Anyone replying to you is doing so independently. Recognition of intellectual property is just an illusion. They have vested interests, of course they're going to recognize it. Doesn't change the underlying absurdity of the system. Doesn't change the fact they constantly run smack into reality on a daily ba…

The idea of exchanging paper for material goods is also absurd. There are also vested interests that rely on maintaining this illusion. They want people to believe that something like a tesla can actually be exchanged for worthless paper. None of this is real so there's endless fights against people who try to make illegal copies of the paper. It's an endless fight, because it's not actually real.

The entire economy is an illusion. But it works because most people buy into the hallucination. IP is much of the same thing. If there's only a few people creating IP laws it doesn't mean anything. It only works because the majority of people respect said IP laws. IP exists because the majority hallucinates it into reality.

Even the concept of "laws" are illusions. They are total fabrications created by mankind. Your entire life is built upon thousands of fabricated concepts and illusions that are in many ways incompatible with your ancient genetic biology. So saying that IP isn't "natural" is meaningless.

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