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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#921

Post by int_19h »

throwaway3060 wrote: post #856
Voultapher wrote: post #814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious what does fighting for freedom legitimately look like in this context for you? > For Fanon in The Wretched of the Earth, the colonizer's presence in Algeria is based on sheer military strength. Any resistance to this strength must also be of a violent nature because it is the only "language" the colonizer speaks. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frantz_Fanon

Continuing the WWII example, I think of partisans running sabotage operations while hiding out in the forests. In contrast, if the actions look closer to those of literal Nazi collaborators, then there is only depravity in that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatyn_massacre

Partisans were kinda notorious for their actions against civilians - sometimes to punish collaborators (although in practice it would often be the entire village deemed collectively responsible if e.g. some partisans were betrayed there, and burned down), but often just targeting the infrastructure to deny it to the Germans even if that meant that civilians would starve to death etc. Here's one famous partisan hero-martyr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoya_Kosmodemyanskaya

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#922

Post by int_19h »

orbital-decay wrote: post #167
meindnoch wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly, yes. Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire, then became conquerors of the world. Russians were oppressed by the Mongols, then became conquerors of Eurasia. Communists were oppressed by Tsarists, then became ruthless oppressors themselves. Protestants were oppressed in Europe, so they set sail to America and became oppressors of the natives.

Not sure if I would lump all those up together, these examples are overly broad and have little in common. There's more than a thousand years and basically no causal link between Roman persecution of early Christians and Crusades, let alone European imperialism, especially if you take Ethiopian, Greek, Georgian, and Armenian Christians into account. Same for Russians and Mongols, there's a pretty large gap with a ton…

> There's more than a thousand years and basically no causal link between Roman persecution of early Christians and Crusades

You don't need to go that far forward, though. It took Christians > Same for Russians and Mongols, there's a pretty large gap with a ton of events in between

Not really. Muscovy was still paying tribute to the Golden Horde and recognizing their supreme authority under Ivan III. His grandson Ivan IV ("the Terrible") conquered the Tatar state, making its lands such as Kazan part of his empire, and sent an expedition to start the conquest of Siberia.

The inaccuracies here are not so much with timing, more so with lack of precision wrt the groups involved. In general, though, I think it's fair to say that, for most part of human history, the oppressed become the oppressors pretty much as soon as they are capable of it.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#923

Post by int_19h »

bombcar wrote: post #184
spacecadet wrote: post #22

If we look at history, do the oppressed always become oppressors?

No. Many times the oppressed simply cease to exist (by assimilation, assassination, or other means). Neanderthals aren’t going to become oppressors.

For a more recent example of a group that was basically exterminated wholesale because they refused to fight back as a matter of principle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#924

Post by throwaway290 »

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #846
throwaway290 wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

jsyk many cases of evidence turned out to be propaganda and instead was showing Syria ( https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231229-war-of-narrat... and Bellingcat looked into it as well) Some of it may be real but you really need to pay attention about who posted it originally, who reposted it etc, even people you wouldn't expect sometimes retweeted recycled Syrian footage...

> Some of it may be real From first-hand accounts, a lot of it is in-fact real. Including the babies who were left to die in the NICU. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/10/09/opinion/gaza-...

There's probably truthful accounts and there's different sorts of manipulation (like OP article is a bit) but you can't know "a lot" or "a little" of what other people see is true of fake

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#925

Post by ashoeafoot »

atoav wrote: post #822
neepi wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. It's difficult to tell what is fact and what is not. A lot of early reports in this war turned out to be false information and the rush to immediate news notification rather than quality journalism means that the head…

This has been one of the deadliest conflicts for journalists in history. The number of killed journalists is very safe data, since the names are known and the cause of death is typically relatively well researched. The story told by the data is that these journalists are overwhelmingly killed by Israeli forces, in some cases with prior notice of the press being where it was. So if the IDF wants the press to tell the…

Hamas member gets a press west by hamas newspaper or the muslim brotherhood (quatar) then participates in hamas warcrimes like using ambulances as troop transports and gets humused. Nobody believes those loud lies anymore.. that whole narrative is falling apart.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#926

Post by ashoeafoot »

int_19h wrote: post #898
amy214 wrote: post #860

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Are you also considering Hamas' long history of humanitarianism? I mean, as a government, they do things like welfare...

Selling food they got for free to ghaza-strippers to finance endless genocidal war?

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#927

Post by [deleted] »

srj wrote: post #890
justin66 wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly certain you haven't read the haaretz article. Otherwise your comment is inexplicable.

The article cites no evidence except for anonymous accounts. There's no video evidence even though people would widely have smart phones there. The association distributing aid as well as Israel's government have denied any of this happened. I'd be upset if this happened too, but there's no evidence of that. My guess is that warning shots were fired. Did I miss something from the article? I did read it.

[deleted]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#928

Post by itchyouch »

amy214 wrote: post #860
neepi wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. It's difficult to tell what is fact and what is not. A lot of early reports in this war turned out to be false information and the rush to immediate news notification rather than quality journalism means that the head…

[flagged]

This rhetoric of “terrorists” is getting quite tiresome.

The world has been watching for over 2 years the atrocities occurring in Gaza and Israel and its people have has lost its credibility to its victimhood on the world stage.

This article is simply 1 extra reporting on a million of Israel’s offenses in the name of terrorism.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#929

Post by orbital-decay »

int_19h wrote: post #922
orbital-decay wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if I would lump all those up together, these examples are overly broad and have little in common. There's more than a thousand years and basically no causal link between Roman persecution of early Christians and Crusades, let alone European imperialism, especially if you take Ethiopian, Greek, Georgian, and Armenian Christians into account. Same for Russians and Mongols, there's a pretty large gap with a ton…

> There's more than a thousand years and basically no causal link between Roman persecution of early Christians and Crusades You don't need to go that far forward, though. It took Christians > Same for Russians and Mongols, there's a pretty large gap with a ton of events in between Not really. Muscovy was still paying tribute to the Golden Horde and recognizing their supreme authority under Ivan III. His grandson Iva…

I think that a lot of monotheistic religions, including Christianity, are generally intolerant to other branches and religions, especially when the faith is supposed to represent absolute truth, so it's probably unrelated to the history of persecution. And Muscovy wasn't the only land opressed by Mongols.

>In general, though, I think it's fair to say that, for most part of human history, the oppressed become the oppressors pretty much as soon as they are capable of it.

Doesn't this also hold for non-oppressed that have the opportunity? Although I suppose it'd be hard to find any examples of non-oppressed groups. Pillaging or conquering neighbors was pretty much the norm throughout the history. Rus' was converted to Christianity in part to stop raids such as Siege of Constantinople of 860.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#930

Post by Sporktacular »

froohmb wrote: post #851
Sporktacular wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before levelling claims of bias and racism, consider that the reporting is by a Jewish run, Israeli newspaper and that the sources are IDF officers and soldiers. To jump to a claim of anti-semitism suggestions you really need to examine your own biases. Atrocities against unarmed civilians are not excused by 'but they started it', who did? The old woman, the 10 year old boy? Justifying collective punishment like this…

War crimes should be taken very seriously, not dealt with in the court of public opinion. Just look at how “ready to convict” people are in this thread, without any evidence whatsoever, just on hearsay —though yes, Haaretz is very reputable. “Blood libel” may be too strong a term, but similar idea: the jews are conspiring to do evil to non-Jews and keep it secret by control of the media or by leveraging the “zog” or…

There is no such thing as an unavoidable war crime.

Reporting is one way they are brought to light. Commenters are allowed to discuss the validity of the claims, whatever their reasoning. You have decided to believe the Israeli military, others have the right to conclude otherwise.

But that the reporters and sources are Israeli means your knee-jerk claims of their anti-semitism or conspiracy are absurd. Nor does that mean the claims must be valid, just that they shouldn't be dismissed out of hand by hair-triggered, wild accusations of anti-semitism. You do know they aren't doing anyone any favours, right?

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