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Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

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Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#921

Post by leereeves »

abirch wrote: post #919
bko wrote: post #902

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a state wants to ban cars it should be free to do so. I think the benefits outweigh the costs and no one would choose to live there. Also important to note no one is banning flouride. They're preventing it from being put in the drinking water. The equivalent would be if cars were distributed upon arriving to the state.

The state is taking the rights away from the municipalities. Why not leave it up to the local people? No one was forcing local towns to fluoridate their water.

But municipalities that chose to do so would be taking the choice away from each individual.

I don't know enough to form an opinion about whether Utah's new policy is good or bad, but it is clearly on the side of individual freedom. (of course that's not the only concern)

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#922

Post by swasheck »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #804
swasheck wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, and i think that’s a pretty recent reading of the US comprehension of freedom. my sense is that the collective individualistic tendencies have ballooned. even as recently as the early 90s, my civics classes emphasized the importance of other people’s rights and that of the expression of your individual rights infringed on the rights of others then it was an irresponsible and improper use of individual rights. it…

I disagree with you that this is a recent idea. It goes back to Locke, Hobbes, and the social contract theorists. The "collective freedoms" idea is more recent, if anything, coming from the subsequent generation of philosophers.

i can agree with the theory behind what you’re saying, but also sense that the practical application of individual freedoms has become increasingly prevalent and acute

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#923

Post by _DeadFred_ »

bko wrote: post #902
fzeroracer wrote: post #897

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many places in Europe have high levels of fluoride in their water naturally. In fact many of them are likely getting far too much fluoride. Also realistically, if people cared about bodily autonomy cars would've been banned immediately thanks to the amount of particulates and local pollution produced causing far more adverse health effects.

If a state wants to ban cars it should be free to do so. I think the benefits outweigh the costs and no one would choose to live there. Also important to note no one is banning flouride. They're preventing it from being put in the drinking water. The equivalent would be if cars were distributed upon arriving to the state.

The equivalent would be if I'm forced to have a government funded road with cars just past my front yard.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#924

Post by dcow »

lee_ars wrote: post #736
naasking wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except it's not—fluoride in the drinking water concentrations is proven safe and it doesn't affect brains. You mean like this: Fluoride Exposure and Children’s IQ Scores A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/... "Findings: Despite differences in exposure and outcome measures and risk of bias across studies, and when using group-level and individual-level…

Hah. Maybe, as noted by others, you should read the study cited before assuming its conclusions support your argument. Which they do not.

I think you should read it. It literally says fluoride in higher concentrations is linked to lower IQ. It says there is insufficient evidence to draw any conclusions in lower concentrations. NOT that fluoride in lower concentrations is definitely without a doubt safe. It leaves open the question. And, it studied fluoride in urine, which means even if the drinking water levels in the US are in the “insufficient data” range, the cumulative effect of multiple sources of fluoride is still a factor.

Also note that in reality 0.7 mg/L is the “low” value and 1.5 mg/L is the high water mark from the study. That’s not a huge window by any means…

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#925

Post by don_neufeld »

Jimmc414 wrote: post #103
culi wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The IQ link is very heavily lacking in evidence. In the actual research the main "risk" posed by flouridated water is actually fluorosis. This causes minerals in your enamel to be replaced with flouride which can cause them to be brittle in the long term. It's pretty uncommon but the thought is that now that flouride toothpaste are commonplace, the benefit of flouridated water is also way less. Which changes the calc…

[flagged]

You can solve your “problem” for a very small price: it costs under $0.50 per day to distill your own drinking water per person.

So for $15/mo, “problem” solved.

Are you doing that?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#926

Post by ninalanyon »

hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

> If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor.

The solution is lifting people out of poverty not papering over the cracks with fluoride.

There is no fluoride in the water here in Norway yet dental health is good because of good education, free dental care for children, students pregnant women, and little absolute poverty.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#927

Post by akutlay »

wtcactus wrote: post #887
nozzlegear wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one thing you're not considering (especially when you say we should vote with our feet) is poverty. It’s true that fluoride toothpaste is widely available, but for people in poverty, of which there are millions in our country, basic hygiene items like toothpaste and a toothbrush aren’t guaranteed. Neither is it guaranteed that everyone has a perfect daily brushing habit like the dentist tells us; there are pe…

I don't believe there's a single person in the USA that's so poor they can't pay $3 for toothpaste every 3 months. I also believe that having such a low personal hygiene where you don't brush your teeth altogether, even if you drink water with fluoride, will have terrible results anyway for your teeth anyway. I'm completely sure that any people that don't brush their teeth is just because they are too lazy to even bo…

It's not that they can't afford a $3 toothpaste, it is the environment they are in that makes it hard to prioritize things like this. It is the education and the overall life quality (or the lack there of) that causes this problem.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#928

Post by somenameforme »

Aloisius wrote: post #914
somenameforme wrote: post #889

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The National Toxicology Program recently completed a fairly substantial meta study and concluded that "for every 1 mg/L increase in urinary fluoride, there is a decrease of 1.63 IQ points in children.". [1] This is also relevant to OP since it's not just pregnant women at risk from excessive fluoridation but also children. For now it seems that adults are, somewhat oddly, unaffected. [1] - https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/w…

In bold from your source: > It is important to note that there were insufficient data to determine if the low fluoride level of 0.7 mg/L currently recommended for U.S. community water supplies has a negative effect on children’s IQ.

Yeah, note the measurement is in urine. So there are two separate issues. Determining whether fluoride is damaging to IQ, and then whether the levels in water can drive this. The former is way easier to evaluate than the latter. The reason comes from that study's intro pargraphs:

---

"Since 1945, the use of fluoride has been a successful public health initiative for reducing dental cavities and improving general oral health of adults and children. There is a concern, however, that some pregnant women and children may be getting more fluoride than they need because they now get fluoride from many sources including treated public water, water-added foods and beverages, teas, toothpaste, floss, and mouthwash, and the combined total intake of fluoride may exceed safe amounts."

---

So the issue is trying to isolate the exact amount and source of fluoride people are getting. And that probably has no answer because it's going to vary dependent on how much fluoridated water somebody drinks, the rest of their diet, their other dental hygiene composition, and more. So levels that would be safe for one percent of the population, will be dangerous for another percent of it.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#929

Post by pona-a »

Water fluoridation conspiracy theories were a thing old enough to be a plot point in 1964 Dr. Strangelove. When there's an entire grift or political career to be a "Fluoride truther", it's really hard to take seriously any of these claims. Given it's naturally occurring and often in higher doses and there'd been so much time to control for any side effects, I'd need extraordinary evidence to be swayed on this.

  GENERAL JACK D. RIPPER: Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.

  GROUP CAPT. LIONEL MANDRAKE: Lord, Jack.

  GENERAL JACK D. RIPPER: You know when fluoridation first began?

  GROUP CAPT. LIONEL MANDRAKE: I... no, no. I don't, Jack.

  GENERAL JACK D. RIPPER: Nineteen hundred and forty-six. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#930

Post by Sparkle-san »

Jimmc414 wrote: post #103
culi wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The IQ link is very heavily lacking in evidence. In the actual research the main "risk" posed by flouridated water is actually fluorosis. This causes minerals in your enamel to be replaced with flouride which can cause them to be brittle in the long term. It's pretty uncommon but the thought is that now that flouride toothpaste are commonplace, the benefit of flouridated water is also way less. Which changes the calc…

[flagged]

It's not your water, it's municipal water you purchase with the fluoride in it.
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