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New York Times Tech Guild goes on strike

washingtonpost.com

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Re: New York Times Tech Guild goes on strike

#921

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your argument is in fact that exact same one that was used to argue against due process in legal proceedings. "In reality it doesn't play out and you get this group of criminals running free on legal technicalities." Dumb comparison. Losing a job is not the same as losing a legal action. You can’t just go get a different life if you’re convicted of robbery. > it happens for the same reason as non-union shops. You h…

Where is this legendary employer who instantly hires all takers, no questions asked?

It doesn’t exist and doesn’t need to. The current job market makes it abundantly clear that people are able to get some form of employment easily, even if it’s not what they want.

The point is that the comparison to due process is shockingly stupid. If the government imprisons you, you are done. Your life in civilization is over for the duration of your incarceration and you have no other options.

Anyone who thinks due process against the monopoly of violence is the same as due process for a payment from a company is completely tone deaf and has never dealt with the impact of government imprisonment.

Being unemployed indefinitely is far better than imprisonment.

Re: New York Times Tech Guild goes on strike

#922

Here is context on the strike, how long it's been brewing, and more that I happened to read yesterday: https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/the-new-york-times...

Thank you so much! That is a vastly more informative article. It seems like it's not so much the NYT is opposed to the contract's specifics -- they're opposed to having a contract at all because the union is new. The NYT has been stringing the union along without ever actually signing anything, so now the union has to strike to get the NYT to take them seriously. Key parts: > The Tech Guild won its unionization vote…

I just don't know, all these points sound so weirdly out of touch with reality, it feels like we live in a world of children and there are no parents anymore.

Point 1: Only getting fired for a good reason? Who decides what a good reason is? The boss right? So what are we even doing here, what's the hidden implication? They want a foot in the door to be able to argue that X wasn't really a good reason and they'll strike over it. If I were a company owner/boss I would want to be able to fire people who are terrible to be around, argumentative for no good reason. Is that a good reason? They would think no because it's a personal fit issue. And yet it's totally legitimate, people don't get hired all the time over "fit" but then you can't fire over "fit". Everytime I have to deal with such colleagues I always think "man if I were a boss, I'd just fire such people, it's so obviously poison for the work environment". Arguing effectively is important but because it's so important it's a great duty to not use it as a tool for personal benefits.

Point 2: Pay discrepancies for "women or people of color" could easily have real world reasons, maybe they really are just worse at their job, less engaged, less ambitious, whatever it is that causes less pay. It's not impossible for this to be the case, no matter how uncomfortable that may be for everyone. Yes really. Yes really really. It can absolutely be true. You might even have a situation where every worker from Russia is just worse at their job. Or the majority of workers that are e.g hindu are just worse for whatever reason that a company can't fathom. It may even be the case that everyone who is white is worse for whatever reason, maybe they are too comfortable, who knows, none of this is impossible and none of this is the job of the company to figure out. I need to have the legal power to pay worse people less money or we are in a situation where you just levied a massive hidden tax on my company. You want me to subsidize worse performers in some strange hope that this is going to help the country as a whole to be nicer. Well having a nicer country would be fantastic, I just want you to be clear that you are issuing massive, gigantic new taxes with these so called anti-racist, anti-sexist rules and it's not just a tax on the company, it also hurts the psychology of all the better workers, so you are hurting society in general. Who is going to count the cost at the end? Why work harder after all if you can just have a certain genetic profile or protected political class and then you'll get free money. What such people who push for this are always implying is that the company is hurting itself in sexist, racist confusion, the implication is that these people are underpaid for the value they provide and the company is too incompetent to see it. The union or government in their infinite wisdom is going to force the company's racists/sexists/homophobes to finally pay according to the real value of these workers and the only metric that they will use to determine the real value is genetics and political class. Absurd isn't even a strong enough word to describe it. Even in the theoretical best case scenario for such a rule where you truly have identical value from two different people, why reward the person that doesn't want to negotiate for more pay? What we should actually do is maybe look at workers' family situation and give people who can't negotiate effectively due to raising kids that they get a government tax bonus. But wait, that is already the case! People who have kids can already get a tax bonus.

Point 3: Yes it would be nice if we could all work how we want but how is that a legitimate negotiable thing for the union to involve itself in? If the company thinks that home office doesn't work for them then who is the union to say otherwise?!

The entire mindset here is so utterly divorced from reality, it's like a luxury daycare where the kids complain that some other kid got a slightly better piece of the pie.

Re: New York Times Tech Guild goes on strike

#923

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not anti union propaganda. The largest union in the United States is the public school teachers union. It has explicitly fought against merit based pay for decades. Other Unions like the electricians unions also sets up seniority base systems. You can proclaim that it's propaganda all you want, but what matters is whether or not it's actually true. I agree that the union has no incentive to look after the benefi…

you see "merit based pay", I see corporations incentivizing shitty boundaries if you adjust for hours worked, unionized employees will make more

If one worker is willing to respond to alerts at 3 AM and another only works 9-5, then those two workers are providing different levels of value to the company assuming equal ability. Why shouldn't the worker that contributes more get rewarded?

This is why unionized workplaces are

> if you adjust for hours worked, unionized employees will make more

This is in large part because unions artificially restrict the workforce. A union job at the docks is great... if you can actually get a job. Plenty of unions practice institutionalized nepotism, with friends and family given priority in hiring. Take the LA port union for example:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/06/02/longshoreman-lottery-...

> This time around, about 80,000 put their names in for the drawing, and 25,000 were picked out and placed in sequential order. The first 2,300 on the list will be eligible for a part-time dockworker position that can lead to full-time employment, PMA officials have previously said.

> Negotiated between the ILWU and PMA, the controversial lottery process has been criticized over the years for being a two-tiered system that favors ILWU friends and family.

> Anyone can put their name in the drawing by sending in a postcard, but ILWU members get a specially marked postcard for their friends and family.

>The two are placed in separate barrels and drawn randomly from alternating piles. The two groups hired an outside party, Moorpark-based InterOptimis, to conduct the drawing behind closed doors, stoking distrust from those outside the process.

Institutionalized nepotism to restrict lucrative jobs to friend and family. That's what happens when unions control well paying jobs.

Union jobs that actually are accessible are things like public school teachers, electricians, plumbers. They pay okay, but nothing compared to to $150,000 median wage of a longshoremen.

Re: New York Times Tech Guild goes on strike

#924
post #912

Regarding RTO: https://thehill.com/opinion/technology/4747313-remote-work-b... The research backs up all the good things that have come out of remote working since at least the pandemic started. Everything is great, employees do better work and the employer gets better work done. Which was never in doubt if you look at research and metrics. The kerfuffle about remote being bad only has the stated negative of somethin…

Why can't they have a good company culture in Hyderabad? Is there something about Indians that you believe prevents them from developing good company culture?

(It's not about the culture) Culture is a vague term they are using as a special movie like McGuffin solution.

Re: New York Times Tech Guild goes on strike

#925

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you so much! That is a vastly more informative article. It seems like it's not so much the NYT is opposed to the contract's specifics -- they're opposed to having a contract at all because the union is new. The NYT has been stringing the union along without ever actually signing anything, so now the union has to strike to get the NYT to take them seriously. Key parts: > The Tech Guild won its unionization vote…

>>According to the study, Black tech workers at the newspaper make 26 percent less than white workers >>women, who make up over 40 percent of the Tech Guild, earn 12 percent less on average than men claims like these always irk me, like did you just compare averages by race/gender? Whoever made this claim, did they control for other factors, like job title/level or productivity? its like the famous "gender pay gap" c…

I don’t think it’s really relevant? It would be a very easy promise to make if no such thing were happening in the first place.

I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they’re smart enough to not just straight up compare the average of all men vs the average of all women.

Re: New York Times Tech Guild goes on strike

#926
post #911

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny enough that it’s always “too high” for non executives but executive pay is never policed and any attempts to do so are met with fierce resistance. Which reminds me of another thing. A good friend of mine is currently getting their MBA from a fairly well regarded school. One thing they recently learned about is structuring compensation. The general adage is that whatever you pay an employee must be in reflection…

The value an employee creates is a function not only of their labor but also the *lever they are given by the company* It's amazing how often I see this asinine argument that assumes an employee is generating value in a vacuum. Labor compensation is determined primarily by substitutability. A $200K engineer creating "$1M worth of value" is not automatically deserving of a higher wage unless there is no one else willi…

The business doesn’t really function without someone actually producing the work. Please tell me why executives are so much more entitled to profits than the people down the chain?

I’m not saying don’t people pay well but the executives - non executive power balance is huge and I don’t see how a person can deny this.

Materially executives are also rarely helped accountable for their terrible decisions or layoffs would actually be laid at their feet.

Labor market imbalances of power are well documented and easily discoverable. It’s really plain at this point that material productivity gains have almost entirely been funneled to the top, with workers benefitting very little. Wages have not kept pace with productivity gains since the 1970s, even if you include the recent blip of wage increases they aren’t meaningful in the grand scheme of things.

I don’t know why we just accept these as truths or whatever cause they don’t have to be

Re: New York Times Tech Guild goes on strike

#927

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you so much! That is a vastly more informative article. It seems like it's not so much the NYT is opposed to the contract's specifics -- they're opposed to having a contract at all because the union is new. The NYT has been stringing the union along without ever actually signing anything, so now the union has to strike to get the NYT to take them seriously. Key parts: > The Tech Guild won its unionization vote…

I just don't know, all these points sound so weirdly out of touch with reality, it feels like we live in a world of children and there are no parents anymore. Point 1: Only getting fired for a good reason? Who decides what a good reason is? The boss right? So what are we even doing here, what's the hidden implication? They want a foot in the door to be able to argue that X wasn't really a good reason and they'll stri…

I'd also point out the irony that if the NYT had hired staff with balanced and diverse perspectives, it might not have put itself in this ouroboros trap.

Re: New York Times Tech Guild goes on strike

#928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you so much! That is a vastly more informative article. It seems like it's not so much the NYT is opposed to the contract's specifics -- they're opposed to having a contract at all because the union is new. The NYT has been stringing the union along without ever actually signing anything, so now the union has to strike to get the NYT to take them seriously. Key parts: > The Tech Guild won its unionization vote…

>>According to the study, Black tech workers at the newspaper make 26 percent less than white workers >>women, who make up over 40 percent of the Tech Guild, earn 12 percent less on average than men claims like these always irk me, like did you just compare averages by race/gender? Whoever made this claim, did they control for other factors, like job title/level or productivity? its like the famous "gender pay gap" c…

Given that I've got a rather nice chunk of cash (buy-a-really-nice-car nice) from a settlement in a pay gap lawsuit, there's at least existence proof that a pay gap exists occasionally to the extent a judge will believe it does. I'd consider looking at the actual data instead of blanket-dismissing via generic questions.

Further, given that the AEI has a very strong incentive to lie a pay gap away, I'd at least suggest consulting additional resources.

Re: New York Times Tech Guild goes on strike

#929

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you so much! That is a vastly more informative article. It seems like it's not so much the NYT is opposed to the contract's specifics -- they're opposed to having a contract at all because the union is new. The NYT has been stringing the union along without ever actually signing anything, so now the union has to strike to get the NYT to take them seriously. Key parts: > The Tech Guild won its unionization vote…

I just don't know, all these points sound so weirdly out of touch with reality, it feels like we live in a world of children and there are no parents anymore. Point 1: Only getting fired for a good reason? Who decides what a good reason is? The boss right? So what are we even doing here, what's the hidden implication? They want a foot in the door to be able to argue that X wasn't really a good reason and they'll stri…

> Only getting fired for a good reason? Who decides what a good reason is?

There are these things that exist called courts and independent arbitrators...

> Pay discrepancies for "women or people of color" could easily have real world reasons, maybe they really are just worse at their job, less engaged, less ambitious, whatever it is that causes less pay.

> ...

> I need to have the legal power to pay worse people less money or we are in a situation where you just levied a massive hidden tax on my company.

Ok, then. We have these things called protected categories. If your contention is one of those categories actually consists of "worse people" that you need to be able to "pay less money," then you need to prove that each of those individuals is in fact "worse." A giant wall-o-text consisting of a bunch of coulds, maybes, and I-want-to-be-able-to-do-this's ain't gonna cut it.

> Yes it would be nice if we could all work how we want but how is that a legitimate negotiable thing for the union to involve itself in?

The short answer: yes. The long answer is: yes, and why is that news to you?

> The entire mindset here is so utterly divorced from reality...

Honestly, I could say the same about your comment.

Re: New York Times Tech Guild goes on strike

#930

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're striking against return to office? I work from home and value it but it never would occur to me to strike for that. I view it as a privilege and not a right. Almost everyone in the world has to go on location for their jobs. I am curious why it is so important to NYT workers in particular that they would strike over it - is there something particularly bad about the location?

> They're striking against return to office? I work from home and value it but it never would occur to me to strike for that. I view it as a privilege and not a right Meanwhile in the early 20th century: > They're striking over a weekend? I work five days a week and value it but it never would occur to me to strike for that. I view it as a privilege and not a right Like, this is generally how it goes; workers' rights…

Except it didn't exactly work out like that, companies were constantly looking for loopholes to avoid it and it didn't become normalized until the Henry Ford did it voluntarily for capitalist reasons and it payed off.
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