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Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#921

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically let them attack Israel as much as they want, and Israel is only allowed to defend? That's like having a sibling that's allowed to punch, prod, and poke you as much as they want. If you don't hit back your life will be hell.

Well that is a mostly self inflicted problem. You can't rob people from their land, force them to retreat into getthos, killing them, then expect that their descendants will be friends. You also can't possibly have your ascendancy been victim of genocide and pretend this is the solution to your own problems.

They didn't 'rob them of their land.' The word "Palestinian" used to refer to jews.

Obviously it's all a bit complicated but a lot of people seem to have the idea that Israel was created out of whole cloth. They were pushed out of literally every other country in the region - https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fh... - so they're clearly hated for reasons other than what you stated.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#922

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be no more ethical to reap precisely the same number of innocent lives as Hamas took; in fact, it would arguably be less ethical, since you'd be laying bare your motivation of vengeance and reprisal. The judgement of whether a military operation is defensible is its objective and necessity, not the ratio of casualties inflicted on both sides. I think much of what's been done in Gaza is indefensible (the culp…

What is indefensible by Israel in Gaza?

In what way does this conversation get better if we get into that?

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#923

I appreciate that this is on here and I hope we can collectively handle it. Tech isn't isolated from this situation, as difficult as it is to admit and talk about with civility and care. A US military software engineer even self immolated recently in protest of what's happening. I don't see what's happening in Gaza as being culturally particular to the specific identity groups involved here. It's a very human situati…

Condolences to his family, Aaron murdered a hero. https://www.npr.org/2024/02/26/1234005058/what-we-know-about...

Why do you classify his death as a murder and not a suicide? To me it just looked like a foolish act.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#924

Is it appropriate to call this a war? To me it seems more like a nation state fighting a terrorist group, with heavy civilian losses.

How is it a terrorist group? The nation state you are referring to is an occupying colonialist state. This same "state" is an apartheid state and not a democracy. You just have to scratch a little under the surface to see it. The nightly raids in the west bank. The concentration camp referred to as Gaza - where this "state" controls all utilities and imports. Hold anyone under your thumb for long enough and they will…

Slaughtering a bunch of dancers at a festival seems congruent with terrorism to me.

Your argument seems to be: it's okay to do terrorist things if someone makes you. But that's still terrorism.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#925
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, a large number of civilian deaths, and massive destruction of property. I have a problem though when the media just shows an endless stream of emotionally manipulative images and stories. I also have a problem with their selectivity, e.g. they don't chose to show us civilians being attacked in Donetsk or something. They also generally don't show us images of Israeli refugees from the north and the south or actu…

I feel like an assertion is missing here: What is your conclusion from all of that? Is it that Israel is treated unfairly by the news media and that's why they are criticized? That may be a factor, but it doesn't feel like a genuine discussion. Maybe Israel is doing some things wrong or there are legitimate concerns about that. The death and destruction are large scale relative to the war zone, and that should be a s…

To your last question I think I know a fair bit. But it's true the average Israeli does not. The average Israeli also doesn't go around telling South Korea what to do or campaigning for the North Koreans or making judgments on which side of Korea is "occupied" by whom or saying that North Korea is a prison and pressuring their local politicians about the plight of the North Koreans.

I think what's going on is partly "Jews Are News". In other words antisemitism. You have to be willingly blind not to see that the coverage of Israel and public outcry is disproportionate to other conflicts and that the focus inevitably seems to be on Israel in a bad way. Maybe another factor is influence in terms of money and effort by those seeking to weaken the west. Internal politics in various countries also have an impact.

Should we then take the position that Israel is above criticism, can do whatever it wants, and face no repercussion? No. Part of my difficulty, as a pro-Israeli, is that there's no doubt that Israel has been drifting in a bad direction. The current government is a disgrace in my opinion. There are many things Israel is doing that are not ok. If you look e.g. at what the Biden administration is saying they are trying to strike this balance of saying "Israel has the right to self defense", "Israel is justified in trying to eliminate Hamas" but at the same time saying things like "Settlements in the west bank are illegal", "Settler violence against Palestinians in the west bank won't be tolerated", "Even though you were dehumanized on Oct 7th you can't dehumanize the other side", "You need to think about the longer term solution". This to me is a measured approach given the existing focus on Israel (if there was no focus then we wouldn't even be talking about these topics).

In terms of being critical I would say what matters is your motivation. If it's coming from a place of genuinely caring about the well being of all people involved, and ideally if you know the facts/history/cultures/geography etc., have at it. The road to hell can still be paved with good intentions but it's much harder to argue with people with good intentions. My problem is with the people that knowingly or not are wanting to see harm come to Israelis (or Jews). Some are outright calling for it (e.g. supporting Oct 7th and general use of indiscriminate violence against random Israelis) and some don't realize that's a consequence of what they're saying (from the river to the sea or stuff like that).

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#926

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an interesting and delicate conversation about how a twenty-something engineer in the military ends up frequenting anti-military and anti-democracy subreddits. I think that fits in with hn. There is another interesting and delicate conversation about what that person thought about Gaza and about Israeli Jews, and where those ideas came from. He posted on Reddit that Hamas's stated intent to destroy Israel -…

In every legal system, intent without capacity is not considered to be intent. It is so laughable and pathetic, frankly, that you brought it up at all.

> It is so laughable and pathetic, frankly, that you brought it up at all.

If the claim you're making is "we should not bring up the fact that the Hamas' stated intent is to kill and/or deport every Jew in Israel because they don't have the capacity to do that"... I mean, I've seen variations of that claim before, but I still find it baffling.

(Standards disclaimers apply, the Hamas having genocidal intent doesn't justify the IDF's war crimes, etc.)

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#927

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia doesn't allow ukrainians back to the occupied territories, they deport the non-complicit ones and the remaining ones are heavily oppressed. That should be the excuse for Poland or the rest of EU to not let the refugees in?

The Arab countries think Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza - drive out the Palestinians. They don't want to help Israel do that. > Russia doesn't allow ukrainians back to the occupied territories I don't know that to be true. AFAIK, Russia would like the population there too.

If Egypt were to abandon leave with Isreal, they would take in refugees and then allow them to return back across their border to Gaza. Maybe they fear that Isreal would bomb them, but it would be harder to politically justify if Egypt wasn't agressing AND the returning Palestinians were returning to create a peaceful state.

The problem seems to be that Palestinians don't want peace, or are unable to separate themselves from the terrorists government.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically let them attack Israel as much as they want, and Israel is only allowed to defend? That's like having a sibling that's allowed to punch, prod, and poke you as much as they want. If you don't hit back your life will be hell.

Well that is a mostly self inflicted problem. You can't rob people from their land, force them to retreat into getthos, killing them, then expect that their descendants will be friends. You also can't possibly have your ascendancy been victim of genocide and pretend this is the solution to your own problems.

Jewish people take on no special moral obligations by being victims of the Holocaust. I can't tell if you were implying that they were, but just for clarity's sake.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#929
post #859

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same as Hamas is fighting an asymmetrical warfare at a disadvantage by IDF, IDF is at the same disadvantage on the journalistic side. They have the monopoly on reporting their side while Hamas is every person with a camera creating whatever narrative they want. So yeah I can see why you choose not to take their word when they say that they have evidence. But trust me bro :-) But seriously now, I don't really understa…

> it would be shocking to discover Hamas is operating from hospitals, mosques and schools. I don't think you're wrong, but I think its wrong when the response is "lets bomb them" instead of figuring out something else.

What is the something else? There is an extensive tunnel network that likely allows insurgents to travel from the hospital to elsewhere. So you can't lay siege to it.

You could send troops in, but now you're in disadvantaged close quarters combat, which is horrific and guaranteed to get many of your troops killed.

The only reasonable strategy is to bomb the hospital. It saves the loves of your troops. Will there be civilian casualties? Yes. Is that preferred to losing your own citizens? Absolutely.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#930

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is indefensible by Israel in Gaza?

In what way does this conversation get better if we get into that?

Perhaps I learn something new, of which I was not previously aware. Or, in articulating it, you do? It's possible we each have information the other does not.
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