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The Cloud Computer

oxide.computer

921–930 of 994 posts

Re: The Cloud Computer

#921
post #784

Couple questions: 1. Are there integrator companies that take these building blocks and build datacenters for other companies? 2. Are these racks intended to be bought in large quantities and put into new datacenters? 3. Is liquid cooling an option? 4. Do you sell datacenters as well as just the racks? Do you have any of your own datacenters built out? 5. Tough question: if these are so competitive and good for your…

1. Not yet, we’ll see what the future holds 2. Eventually, right now we are just starting, so working closely with customers and in small quantities, but eventually that is the idea. 3. No. We are already doing very well with fans, the design means a very tiny power draw. The racks are quite quiet. 4. No. 5. Selling hardware and running a private cloud are two different businesses. The public clouds don’t also sell s…

Thanks for the answers. Some followups:

1. Seems like you would need quite a bit of capital to be one of these integrator companies, to float the cash to buy land, build a facility and buy the racks. Does your own vs rent philosophy extend so far to also say that companies should also own the land and facility on and in which a server rack sits? Early on, Amazon talked about purpose-built datacenters being important, with huge power and internet connectivity requirements, earthquake/fire/flood protection and HVAC requirements. Sounds like the best way to go, if you have a huge amount of cash, seems like unit economics are now favoring data center costs in the billions of USD.

2. For now, would it make much sense to buy one or more of these and co-locate it with a cloud company's existing facilities in an office building? Or, if you had some space in a "good" datacenter where you leased space and sublet space, connection, power and maintenance costs to your customers, would that reduce the friction for buying one of these? Or does that essentially defeat the purpose and advantage of owning your own racks? If you remove the price of renting the rack, what's the ongoing cost to park one of these in an existing datacenter? Is that even an option?

3. From a purely mechanical perspective, the performance and efficiency advantages with liquid cooling vs. air cooling seem great. Seems like the problem is mostly around installation, maintenance, application requirements and reliability. Would be great to eventually see an integrated rack with liquid cooling plumbing hookups going directly to heat exchangers. At the cost of massively increased initial cost, maintenance cost, and with a built-in severe, catastrophic failure mode... Understood that this doesn't really make sense if these racks are being put into existing air-cooled datacenters or office buildings, which seems like it's going to be the case for awhile?

5. Too bad, seems like your prospective customers are in a similar sales funnel as people who want to rent capacity in a private cloud (and it's always nice to be your own customer!) What prevents your competitors from also selling servers? Do you think that the reason that public cloud companies don't sell servers is that they think their competitors will get ahold of the hardware and copy their technical advantages? Or is it that they have the deep pockets for building datacenters that their customers don't necessarily have, and they would rather have monthly revenue anyways?

Re: The Cloud Computer

#922

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bryan Cantrill is famously against vendor lock-in. He wrote a[n in]famous blog about the "FYO point" while at Sun. Oxide may be going for customers that also have the same aversion to vendor lock-in. One thing that Bryan understands is that you can "lock" the customer in with great products and services, as well as continuing development, while also making the customer feel secure in having a way out should you turn…

> How big is the market of sufficiently-vendor-lock-in-averse customers? Very. Just look at the USA defense spending budget. If you’ve ever worked on AWS-govcloud or secret, you know there’s a market here. This has huge use for military too. Imagine having a black site or off-grid location but still needing a rack of things. What if you could spin up an entire enterprise infrastructure by just loading up this rack? I…

You are strongly misinterpreting both how real-world customers perceive vendor lock in and how DoD procurement works. Everything here is so far off from reality I don't even know where to begin.

Re: The Cloud Computer

#925

I am CTO of a large global data center provider posting with throwaway account. As a technologist, I really appreciate what they have done. Impressive work, high quality, however I don't understand who this is for. The meaningful market for Data Center hardware is pretty well defined in two clusters. People that build/make custom gear (such as Hyperscalers) and people that buys HP/Cisco/IBM/Dell... (blades or hyper-c…

Bryan Cantrill is famously against vendor lock-in. He wrote a[n in]famous blog about the "FYO point" while at Sun. Oxide may be going for customers that also have the same aversion to vendor lock-in. One thing that Bryan understands is that you can "lock" the customer in with great products and services, as well as continuing development, while also making the customer feel secure in having a way out should you turn…

> "FYO point"

https://web.archive.org/web/20080705140230/http://blogs.sun....

And "FYO" stands for Fuck You Oracle.

Re: The Cloud Computer

#926

I've been following Oxide since they formed and I really hope they crush it. Semi-sort-of related... there was an automation company, Bedrock automation, that went defunct about a year ago. Their PLC hardware ideas were dope but I always felt like they were missing the boat a little bit by supporting stale PLC programming languages. I used to wonder if supporting Rust and Ada on these PLC's would be been a good idea…

I feel like a lot of people miss the point on PLC stuff. “Stale PLC programming languages” might be stale and in need of a rework, but “rewrite in rust” entirely missed the value proposition. Memory safety is important, sure, but these systems aren’t usually ever allocating memory or taking actions that aren’t deterministic. PLCs usually operate in strict realtime environments. Like each operation contains a known nu…

Yep... I programmed PLC's for periods of my career. I could write about this until my fingers fall off, but in short:

Rust and C code can also operate in strict real-time embedded environments provided some basic rules are followed like "no dynamic memory allocation". This done all the time.

If one follows hard real-time coding standards like Misra C or "JPL real-time C" (and these standards can also be applied to Rust, Zig, Ada, etc.) the code will run deterministically on a given target... just like PLC code running is not necessarily any more deterministic than C code (no dynamic allocation) running on an embedded processor. In fact, many PLC's today run a "PLC code execution" engine on top of a real-time operating system like QNX (which I think is mostly C code). Even in some older PLC's, it is still C firmware that's interpreting and running the PLC code.

PLC programming "languages" (ladder logic, FBD, CFC) were designed for their programming audience, who are not software engineers. It is difficult to represent complex logic and numerical code in these languages and that limits the sophistication of algorithms that can be implemented on these systems. For instance: try writing a model predictive control routine in ladder logic; I think it could be done but I'd lose my remaining hair doing it.

PLC Structured Text is very similar to Pascal and pretty capable, but folks generally don't write model predictive control algorithms in Structured Text either.

It is hard to orchestrate multiple PLC to run as a cohesive, deterministic unit. The interfaces between PLC often need to be kept simple and sometime this communication is less real-time. Things are a lot more advanced in cluster computing.

The limitations of current PLC architectures is already a pain point for complex control system, like large robotic manufacturing lines or optimal control of HVAC in large buildings)... and it's going to get worse as performance demands increase. Again, as mentioned above, I think Beckhoff and B&R are further along the evolutionary path than others in the industry.

Re: The Cloud Computer

#927
post #11

This is actually a pretty big deal. They sell servers, but as a finished product. Not as a cobbled together mess of third party stuff where the vendor keeps shrugging if there is an integration problem. They integrated it. It comes with all the features they expect you to want if you wanted to build your own cloud. Also, they wrote the software. And it's all open source. So no "sorry but the third party vendor droppe…

I don't see it as a big deal - rather, I see it as a huge amount of venture cap spent on some very bright people to build something no one really wants, or, at best, is niche. Also, it has little to do with the cloud; it is yet another hyperconverged infra. Weirdly, it is attached to something very few people want: Solaris. This relates to the people behind it who still can't figure out why Linux won and Solaris didn…

> something no one really wants, or, at best, is niche

Could be! Seems too early to tell though, and remains to be seen whether it pencils. Which is the whole idea of starting a new venture, no?

Re: The Cloud Computer

#928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're deploying VMs, which is the use case here, the substrate OS becomes significantly less important. Those VMs will mostly just be linux. Yes they are using illumos/Solaris to host this but they don't sell on that, they sell on the functionality of this layer — allowing people to deploy to owned infra in a way that is similar to how they'd deploy to AWS or Azure. How much do you ever think about the system h…

> When you're deploying VMs, which is the use case here, the substrate OS becomes significantly less important. Those VMs will mostly just be linux. Now you need to know both the OS they chose and the OS you chose... (No, I don't believe it'll be 100% hands-off for the host. This is an early stage product, with a lot of custom parts, their own distributed block storage, hypervisor, and so on.)

I have no clue what OS runs my VMs on EC2.

Re: The Cloud Computer

#929

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a bug in how a lambda function is run on AWS, do you find yourself looking for the bug in firecracker? It is open source, so you technically could, but I just don't see many customers doing that. Same can be said about KNative on GCP. Their choice in foundation OS (for lack of a better term) really should not matter to any customer.

I am unable to do so. Now imagine a multi-million dollar mission critical pile of computers running on premises, and your sysadmin being able to do so. Oxide is closer to a rack of Supermicros than AWS.

Ok but then that is purely additive then, right? Like, "have to find someone with Illumos expertise to fix something that was never intended to be customer-facing" may not be easy, but is still easier than the impossibility of doing the same thing on AWS / Azure / Google Cloud.

Re: The Cloud Computer

#930
post #879

Earlier quoted context omitted.

400 TB but no ZFS, and lots of hardware and software but no support. And not a single mention of backups. Good luck with that.

It's since grown over the past 10 years to about 2 PB of storage. I mentioned I use rsync for backups.

rsync to where?
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